I was traveling from Bangalore to Kolkata few days ago. On my way, I saw a few things, which I thought I might share.
Travel
South India is very sensitive about it’s languages and culture. They feel that the North Indian (Hindi) culture is trying to eat up their culture and language. Sometimes these justifiable concerns are used/expoited wonderfully by southern chauvinists. Because of them, we’ve had a riot when a famous Kannada actor (Rajkumar) died (of old age!). Mob went out and pelted stone at windows, shops and glasses. Because of these same chavinists, all buses in Karnataka have their destination written only in Kannada. A real pain in the neck for who don’t read Kannada, some of them are Kannada themselves (they study in English).It was, therefore, very surprising when I noticed that there was not a single announcement made in Kannada at the Bangalore airport. All announcements were made in Hindi and in English. That’s the other extreme. It felt as if the urban rich India was challenging the common Kannada people, outside the airport- `we don’t give a damn’. I didn’t like the absence of Kannada, just as don’t like the absence of English on Karnataka buses.
Untouchability
Shattered Me (Picture by Splat Worldwide )
Then I was at Kolkata.
I feel happy that I am from a state which does not practice cast system much. West Bengal has little record of female foeticide- the sex ratio is fairly normal here. Communalism is less than most parts of India, but on the rise at the moment.
I have also felt disgusted that India practices all of these, and is not taking it seriously to undo them.
I have always heard about untouchability. Little did I expect that I will see it being practiced in Kolkata, a poor place of high morals, a place I thought has risen far above these.
At the flat where I was putting up, there lives a lady, opposite to my door. (She’s not a Bengali, to be fair to the the Bengalis.) She was standing at the gate, buying some fruits from a street vendor. She threw a plastic bag towards the man. (She stood a meter away from him). The Nepali darwan held the bag as the poor man poured fruits into the bag for the woman who wouldn’t touch her.
I could stand there anymore. I left. Arguing with her would have been futile, for a number of reasons. The best thing I could have done, I realized later, was to find a pretext to shake hands with the man in front of her. I hope I will remember the lesson next time I encounter a similar situation.
Me too. Please reread what I have written.
Did I? Thanks for the info. I’ll note it down.
I am not an expert on history, but from what I have read, casteism was already low in cities at the time of independence. It’s difficult to practice castism where people are on the move all the time, you see.
That does not mean I am saying we made no improvements. But what we have done is not much. A lot more remains to be done.
I can agree with you there. At least in urban and semi-urban setting. In rural areas, I can’t imagine wanting to have my shadow become a pollutant. Honest. Reservation doesn’t reach these guys. Forget reservation benefits- recently a guy from Punjab got his hands chopped off because he complained to the police when the upper caste guys in his village decided to have fun with his daughter.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main16.asp?filename=Cr020406do_bigha.asp
So? What have I got to do with that? I’m a Muslim and Arabs are the ideal Muslims? Or do you want me to ask the slaves I keep? I did not mistreat any of them. Honest!
Thanks Manas
It is always good to get the honest descriptions and sometimes by adding a litte chilly in Karan Thapar style. However generally untouchability is sometimes tried to be proved as a Hindu prerogative. This has not been the case. Infact hinduism has always been open to reforms and has always tried to modernise their ways. I am a Catholic and have been reading Upanishads and Mahagita and have not found anywhere in the hindu scriptures regarding casteism or untouchability. Also a very mystique philosphy. In Gita krishna tells arjun that based on Guna(Quality) there are four types of people in the world. He does not refers anywhere regarding people based on birth.
Also, in one of the other articles in secular, prosperous suicide bombers you tell shama that people accused Muslims of being lenient to Slaves. I don’t really understand that a concept of slavery born in europe and middle east where people were treated much much more shabbishly and they have the gut to attack casteism in India. In India the Muslims have also not been free from casteism. There are tons of essays where Ashraf castes used to treat the Ajlaf castes very badly. One of the surnames for Ashraf caste directly descended from Arabs is Shaikh. I am sure you dont believe in that or do you?
I am not sure who are ideal Muslims? But one thing is definite even the mose unideal Muslim is not open to Reform. Even the most secular Muslim will somehow oppose the idea of Madarsa reform. Even the best Muslim friend will somehow try to convert you to Muslim and by attacking the weakness of your religion.
Manoj
It is true that Hinduism did not have this in the beginning. It is also true that untouchability is now part of Hindu society.
What is important is not that it is part of Hindu society (and part of Muslim society as well), what matters is that this practice is wrong, and it has to be done away with.
Unfortunately a Muslim criticizing untouchability is always viewed with suspicion that this is an effort to derogate their religion. Honestly, if untouchability is a part of Hinduism, does it need degrading?
Rig Veda etc. don’t mention birth-based casts. Who will tell and who will listen?
This is a flawed logic. The worst part is that it assumes that all Muslims belong to middle east.
There is none.
Not sure what secular Muslim means; I assume you mean progressive. You can have a look at the archive of this blog. You will find an answer.
Proselytizing is everyone’s constitutional right. And your friends try to convince you because they want good things for you.
Manas, I never mentioned Rig veda.If a non muslim attacks untouchability it is seen with suspicion. No not at all. I have myself criticised it openly to many of my friends In Kerala. If the intention is to do something good then criticism is highly welcomed. Raja Ram Mohan Roy or Arya Samaj have worked volumes in removing this untouchability. Bhakti and sufi movements were at the forefront of this stigma. Also, I have never been averse to reading any religious scripture. I have also read the Quran. However, I do believe that a person should be a good human being and should never be a christian, muslim or hindu. When you say to someone that be a Muslim or be a christian or be a Hindu you tend to create a sort of mental division as you being different from a certain segment of the society.
I strongly believe that a human movement rather than any other movement is the requirement of the society. Also, I never said that all muslims belong to the middle east. I said the practise of slavery was born in Africa and Middle east. The white christians are also responsible for starting this practice. The Arab Muslims to this day use african slaves where they are kept chained and beaten.
Also based on your observation in Bengal or the incidence of tehelka it is not correct to say that untouchability exists specially if it is shown based on Hindu religion or being part of it. There are incidents of such human behaviour in all religions and in all regions throughout the world even now. Discrimination is something a human behaviour. Again regardig Rig Veda who will tell and who will listen I feel the world is definitely moving back to their religions again and are also open to explore anything which leads them to peace. There are more meditation centres in europe and US than in India. This is also a gift of this great Indian culture and we all can be proud of that irrespective of us being christians, muslims or hindus.
[quote]I am not sure who are ideal Muslims? But one thing is definite even the mose unideal Muslim is not open to Reform. Even the most secular Muslim will somehow oppose the idea of Madarsa reform. Even the best Muslim friend will somehow try to convert you to Muslim and by attacking the weakness of your religion.[/quote]
Hi Manoj
I disagree with you. I am a Muslim and I would love to see madrassa reform. I recommend to you one of my charities, which is something the leaders of these places should have started long ago
http://www.threecupsoftea.com/
I believe in freedom of religion and have friends from all walks of life; no one chooses to be born into a religion and those who leave it usually have significant personal reasons for doing so. In that, I do not believe that anyone can be forced into belief. But, unlike, many other people, I feel that learning about other religions is important to maintain secularism and mutual respect. Here is another instance for this belief.
http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IN0702-3233
Generalising about all people on the basis of a few creates barriers to understanding.
Generalising about all people on the basis of a few creates barriers to understanding.
Whol heartedly Agree and that was all my point.
Also, 100% agree that people should be free to choose their religions, their thoughts or their ambitions etc . Whether it is a conversion into Islam, christianity , hinduism or outside Islam, christianty, hinduism. I personally believe that religious fights is the most brazenly stupid thing in this world. Although born a catholic I have been very much influenced both by Upanishads and even the sufi thoughts. I wrote my last sentence ”Even the most secular Muslim will somehow oppose the idea of Madarsa reform” in haste because of Mirza Faisal. (He is the culprit
. Put in simple terms I like Mirza’s articles . I was a little upset when I read one of his messages in the topic Three Maulanas and Interview where it seemed like he was opposing the reforms. I then saw his another message and got the point.(Mirza doesnt give any pointers) Yes Madarsa education is based On Islamic education and that is the primary thing these people are going there for. If they appreciate ideas of other religions then I guess that is one of the things reforms are being asked . I did also give one idea as to how students coming out of these madarsas can be shining gems for society, country and their religion. One of them definitely was that their skills can be utilised for developing Islamic software. I am in UK nowadays and see Islamic Banking or Islamic ways of giving interest all using different softwares. However can’t be this simple.
Also After reading books from Osho on theological discourse or scholars like Annie Besant and other Indian Literature do believe that there has been a civilisation here in India which can never be born again or to whose equal I guess none other can get near to. The mysticism, peace and love in these books can not be surpassed. I was even surprised when many of my christian folks in the west agreed my view point. India has lost it and probably that loss has been a huge one for mankind. People of other religion and even hindus (unconsciously like the Gujurat episode or casteism ) attack it without knowing that this culture is so deep, innocent and inquisitive. This culture should be rebuilt and not by people in RSS. The uncultured north can never be ashoka’s India or the cultured south can never near Ramanuja.
Manoj:
Again, I beg to disagree (this is becoming a habit)
While we are still in the throes of change in our society, the one thing Indians can be counted on is pragmatism. Even the BJP had to soften its stance and recognise that Muslims are part of India when the VHP generated hoopla died down. The most strident supporter was ashamed of the riots in Gujarat and how it represented India to the world. Religiously, the common man in India has always been pluralistic, it is a few who wave banners and attempt to create issues. Once faced with reality however, they find that they stand on shaky pedestals.
I was enormously pleased with the direction of the 11th five year plan. Unlike other social systems in the West, which are strongly focused on the individual, the Indian identity has always been linked to and stemmed from his feeling of community. Unlike the progress in other countries, which has been called free trade and has increased drastically the gap between poor and rich, I had always hoped that Indian capitalism would be tempered by fair trade. The proposed 11th plan which focuses not on GDP as an end but, as a means to an end, is a step in the right direction. As an idealistically realistic nationalist, I have great faith in our capacity to maintain our strengths while absorbing foreign ideas.
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/From-India-to-Bharat-planning-a-paradigm-shift/237535/
Thanks Shama! But which point are we disagreeing with. Disagreeing can become a habit but it definitely helps in moving towards more logical debates.
I disagree that India has lost it.
Sorry for the ambiguity.
Shama, see we can’t disagree for long. I do agree that my statement was wrong. India has not lost it. I never disagreed with you infact.
My only point here is the notion that untouchability is something associated with Hinduism. If Ajlaf castes have to find their solutions within Islam the Dalits have questioned the so called Brahmins about distortion of their religious scriptures as well. Infact movies like MatruBhumi by Manish Jha, Water by Deepa and many others have never failed to reflect the weakness in the Hindu strata and these directors are from the upper castes. Both these movies were set in backgrounds which do not exist. The hindu intellectuals have always welcomed such debates. Even the outbring of Gujurat riots were done by people like Rakesh Sharma and many key Hindu intellectuals. Mayawati a Dalit leader in UP has won by the votes of upper castes including Brahmins. Where I do not buy arguments of Manas is because he saw a lady referring Brahmin Bhoj or because of Tehelka story we conclude that untouchability is rampant. If you walk even in the suburbs of new york which is a highly educated modern society or a country which prides itself as a country of free and without any racism you can sometimes be discriminated by a white educated elite guy who may have best christian values.The Slave trade institutionalised and given religious sanction by Arab Muslims is also a shattering example. Muslim countries in Africa still don’t want to abolish it or are in the process of it.
With time untouchability is coming to an end more and more and Inshallah it will soon be gone.
Manoj,
I don’t think Manas made the case that “untouchability is rampant”. I think his point was that it has not gone away, even in urban middle-class India. I think that is a valid observation, though I pointed out that sometimes what may seem like an instance of untouchability may actually be a practice of ritual purity before worship.
The bottomline is that untouchability or some variant of it still exists – the extent may vary depending on rural vs. urban or region. And it needs to be eradicated. The politicians are not going to do it for us – our political system provides them incentives to solidify rather than get rid of caste distinctions. We ordinary citizens need to eradicate its remaining vestiges, through our actions and our words.
Girish, Thanks! Manas had good intentions infact and I wanted to actually discuss more and find the correct cause. Then I landed up on website of Manas
http://wishsubmission.wordpress.com/2006/10/15/conversion-menace/
also given in his article. I gave him the logical reasons that the Hindu right wing could have given rather than abuses. Infact Manas right wing is right because they are inherently wrong and that is why they actually fail to even bring out the right things for what they represent. And believe me if you are part of any religion and you want to move out of that you will never be welcomed. Please see video of Dr Zakir Naik recommending capital punishment for people moving out of Islam.
http://www.viddler.com/explore/sarmad/videos/3/
Girish now you answer my questions since you seem to be a Brahmin. Why is casteism finding sanction in Hindu religion even to this day? Why did the Brahmins formed this so called hierarchial structure in the hindu society? Even many modern learned scholars seem to accept this as part of religion. If you read Gita and as quoted above people were to be defined based on quality and one of the worst tragedies of human history has been the formation of society based on basis of birth. Why do educated people still so vehemently defend their caste as something that gives them superiority. Do you also believe in the hierarchial structure of this hindu society?
Manoj,
I am not an expert in these matters. But I remember reading a brilliant exposition by Osho on the reasons for the hierarchial structure , it’s relevance then(largely spiritual growth) and it’s subsequent corruption by vested interests. I don’t exactly remember which talk of Osho it was from. But one of things Osho said was that one had to EARN the right to be a Brahmin(which was a passport to the spiritual practices), it was not by virtue of birth. It was quite akin to the Pythagorean School of the ancient Greeks, which was a mystical school, and one had to “qualify” and follow a set of rules to continue being a member. For example some of rules were: No personal possessions were allowed and the members were required to assume a mainly vegetarian diet.
Manas Sheikh,
Before I go on to counter your comments, first let me educate you on some of the facts about India. India has 22 National languages. Mind you Hindi is just one of them and anyone who expects to treat Hindi differently (Oh, I cannot even say superiorly) is just a pseudo-liberal. I have been to different parts of the world and different cities of India and let me tell you nobody is more discriminative than Hindi speaking people of the North. You go to a city in the North and even the educated people don’t speak in English even when you let them know that I do not understand Hindi. What kind of a chauvinistic, narrow mentality is this from the North Indians (unfortunately, educated north Indians).
Now to counter your arguments: You go to any other state my dear friend and you will see that the names of the destinations are written in the local language. Be it Hindi or Bengali. In fact in some parts of India even the interstate buses are written in local languages (For ex: a TN bus which travels between Bangalore and TN, has all the names written in Tamil, while the rules require them to have the names in Kannada/Tamil).