Comments on: The women in black http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/ A Window Into The Indian Muslim Life Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:21:41 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: mahi http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-9271 mahi Wed, 04 Apr 2007 03:41:46 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-9271 Sharique, I agree with the relative nature of such adjectives. However, what I'm trying to get at is that the spirit of Shariah is what you should be worried about. That I am sure can be implemented in laws perfectly in tune with the modern world. Neither will they need to be strict. Its when we interpret Shariah as the external form, which is of another age, that the trouble really begins and things like 'strict' start to creep in. Thats my take anyway - spirit before form, cos form will never last without the right animating spirit. Sharique, I agree with the relative nature of such adjectives. However, what I’m trying to get at is that the spirit of Shariah is what you should be worried about. That I am sure can be implemented in laws perfectly in tune with the modern world. Neither will they need to be strict. Its when we interpret Shariah as the external form, which is of another age, that the trouble really begins and things like ’strict’ start to creep in.

Thats my take anyway – spirit before form, cos form will never last without the right animating spirit.

]]> By: Mohib http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-9257 Mohib Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:45:25 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-9257 This comment is from Shahran Asim and for some reason it could not be posted. ----- All, I think I would request everyone in this thread to do listen to a very thought provoking interview which was done in the library premises done by Dr.Shahid Masood for Geo TV. It is divided in four parts and he asked really tough questions to teacher and the students who did that. Dr. Shahid Masood's show Meray Mutabiq on Jamia Hafsa issue on youtube.com (in four parts): http://youtube.com/watch?v=76draLi59PA http://youtube.com/watch?v=UonCPhvPGsc http://youtube.com/watch?v=uK-Zu9DBAwQ http://youtube.com/watch?v=AeHK8dXktd4 This comment is from Shahran Asim and for some reason it could not be posted.

—–

All,

I think I would request everyone in this thread to do listen to a very thought provoking interview which was done in the library premises done by Dr.Shahid Masood for Geo TV. It is divided in four parts and he asked really tough questions to teacher and the students who did that.

Dr. Shahid Masood’s show Meray Mutabiq on Jamia Hafsa issue on youtube.com (in four parts):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=76draLi59PA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UonCPhvPGsc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uK-Zu9DBAwQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AeHK8dXktd4

]]> By: triple http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-9250 triple Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:39:46 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-9250 sharique, the people at all times and ages have worried about the 'rot' of the society. what is this rot? a moral judgement? its a subjective thing and no business of the state, not even a state that treats all citizens equally, let alone some religious law. its pure naive to believe that societies prosper on any front under a 'strict' regime. there is no proof in history. the so called glory of the past (which was a disaster for some others) was not achieved through strict laws. it was through adventures and capable scholars and generals. Islam represented change then. I'll repeat, "Islam represented change then". The rest need not be said. sharique, the people at all times and ages have worried about the ‘rot’ of the society. what is this rot? a moral judgement? its a subjective thing and no business of the state, not even a state that treats all citizens equally, let alone some religious law.

its pure naive to believe that societies prosper on any front under a ’strict’ regime. there is no proof in history. the so called glory of the past (which was a disaster for some others) was not achieved through strict laws. it was through adventures and capable scholars and generals. Islam represented change then.

I’ll repeat, “Islam represented change then”. The rest need not be said.

]]> By: Sharique http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-9248 Sharique Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:59:34 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-9248 mahi, I never used the word 'extreme' for shariah. I used 'strict'. Well everything is relative when it comes to these adjectives. I called it strict relative to today's world. Many practices which have become a part of the society would invite punishment under shariah. [quote post="209"]Islam can exist only as a product of ‘extreme laws’? [/quote] No, Islam doesn't require for Shariah to exist. It's not imperative for the country as a whole. [quote post="209"]How can any religion need extreme laws for its life?[/quote] Again this is relative and based on society. The concepts which have slowly crept into our culture can and are already rotting it from within. mahi,
I never used the word ‘extreme’ for shariah. I used ’strict’. Well everything is relative when it comes to these adjectives. I called it strict relative to today’s world. Many practices which have become a part of the society would invite punishment under shariah.
[quote post="209"]Islam can exist only as a product of ‘extreme laws’? [/quote]
No, Islam doesn’t require for Shariah to exist. It’s not imperative for the country as a whole.
[quote post="209"]How can any religion need extreme laws for its life?[/quote]
Again this is relative and based on society. The concepts which have slowly crept into our culture can and are already rotting it from within.

]]> By: mahi http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-9236 mahi Tue, 03 Apr 2007 06:11:37 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-9236 Sharique, I believe Girish summed it up well. I can't add more on that front. For my own further education, I am going to hark back to something I've posted on another IM entry already, based upon this line: 'It became a must for Islam to exist in the modern day world.' If I read your context correctly, you are indeed saying that Islam can exist only as a product of 'extreme laws'? Meaning life under extreme laws is truly Islamic, otherwise not. You obviously know more about the religion, but my gut tells me you are wrong. How can any religion need extreme laws for its life? Just does not make sense to me. Maybe somebody can elaborate. This brings me to what I asked before, elsewhere, to an outsider, what should be the 'essence' of Islam? Maybe then we will be in a better position to say if tough laws are indeed justified for ensuring its full expression. Sharique, I believe Girish summed it up well. I can’t add more on that front. For my own further education, I am going to hark back to something I’ve posted on another IM entry already, based upon this line: ‘It became a must for Islam to exist in the modern day world.’

If I read your context correctly, you are indeed saying that Islam can exist only as a product of ‘extreme laws’? Meaning life under extreme laws is truly Islamic, otherwise not. You obviously know more about the religion, but my gut tells me you are wrong. How can any religion need extreme laws for its life? Just does not make sense to me. Maybe somebody can elaborate. This brings me to what I asked before, elsewhere, to an outsider, what should be the ‘essence’ of Islam? Maybe then we will be in a better position to say if tough laws are indeed justified for ensuring its full expression.

]]> By: Girish http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-8889 Girish Sat, 31 Mar 2007 14:07:24 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-8889 Sharique: I did not assume that you supported vigilante groups. I did not think that you would support them. The point about vigilante groups was a generic one - one that applies to our country as well. Hence my reference to it. My first point is that imposition of religious beliefs and laws on anybody is wrong and in fact in contravention to basic conventions that most countries are signatory to. It is unislamic as well - there is an oft-quoted verse from the Quran Sharif that says "there is no compulsion in religion". No country, not even Saudi Arabia, is homogenous in terms of religious beliefs and it is just as bad to impose Shariah as it would be to impose Hindu laws on everybody in India or Christian laws in the Christian majority countries of the world. There are some countries that do this anyway, but they are wrong. Furthermore, as a report by the (in)famous Justice Munir in Pakistan showed, no two alims agreed on what Shariah is - there was disagreement even within sects, let alone across sects. Hence, it is not practical, even if it were otherwise ok to impose Shairah. Sharique:

I did not assume that you supported vigilante groups. I did not think that you would support them. The point about vigilante groups was a generic one – one that applies to our country as well. Hence my reference to it.

My first point is that imposition of religious beliefs and laws on anybody is wrong and in fact in contravention to basic conventions that most countries are signatory to. It is unislamic as well – there is an oft-quoted verse from the Quran Sharif that says “there is no compulsion in religion”.

No country, not even Saudi Arabia, is homogenous in terms of religious beliefs and it is just as bad to impose Shariah as it would be to impose Hindu laws on everybody in India or Christian laws in the Christian majority countries of the world. There are some countries that do this anyway, but they are wrong. Furthermore, as a report by the (in)famous Justice Munir in Pakistan showed, no two alims agreed on what Shariah is – there was disagreement even within sects, let alone across sects. Hence, it is not practical, even if it were otherwise ok to impose Shairah.

]]> By: Global Voices Online » Blog Archive » India: On the shariah http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-8888 Global Voices Online » Blog Archive » India: On the shariah Sat, 31 Mar 2007 09:37:39 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-8888 [...] Indian Muslims on the shariah, law, state and culture. “I firmly believe that in this present day world shariah laws cannot be enforced on people because Muslim society in general has diverted away from religion. Concepts which invite death punishment in Islam are now acceptable in many cultures, like live in relationships and extra marital affairs.” Neha Viswanathan [...] [...] Indian Muslims on the shariah, law, state and culture. “I firmly believe that in this present day world shariah laws cannot be enforced on people because Muslim society in general has diverted away from religion. Concepts which invite death punishment in Islam are now acceptable in many cultures, like live in relationships and extra marital affairs.” Neha Viswanathan [...]

]]> By: Sharique http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-8874 Sharique Sat, 31 Mar 2007 05:46:58 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-8874 Well Girish you have every right to disagree :) But I wonder how can you assume that if <em>Shairah </em>is applied to a country then 'vigilant groups' will take over the law & order machinery. I never supported these so called champions of religion or their ways, did I? I don't want to argue regarding the merits of <em>Shariah </em>because 1. I am not an expert on this issue. 2. The so called <em>shariah </em>complaint countries have earned enough laurels that has demonized <em>shariah</em> Well Girish you have every right to disagree :) But I wonder how can you assume that if Shairah is applied to a country then ‘vigilant groups’ will take over the law & order machinery. I never supported these so called champions of religion or their ways, did I?

I don’t want to argue regarding the merits of Shariah because
1. I am not an expert on this issue.
2. The so called shariah complaint countries have earned enough laurels that has demonized shariah

]]> By: Girish http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/comment-page-1/#comment-8869 Girish Sat, 31 Mar 2007 04:23:52 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/the-women-in-black/#comment-8869 I am with you Sharique, that Shariat should not be applied by force on anybody. But my reason for the same differs from yours and therefore let me lay it out. I think that imposing it is wrong inherently, not just because 'Muslims have moved away from religion'. Even if they had not moved away from religion, I believe that imposition is wrong and is in fact counterproductive. Furthermore, I think it would be unreligious as well. Religion is between a person and his God. No other person should have a right to judge what is in somebody else's heart. And no other person should have a right to impose religious beliefs on somebody. Therefore, I think your solution of imposing it gradually is almost as bad as what these veiled women in the video are trying to do. If people want it, they can live their lives according to the Shariat (to the extent that it does not impact others who don't want to live by it). Beyond that, no society, whether Muslim majority or not, has a right to demand religious beliefs from its citizens. Beyond being plain wrong, it is a gross violation of the Universal Covenant on Human Rights that most nations have signed. In this particular instance, the questions go deeper than the imposition of Shariat. The question is whether the state can allow a vigilante group to take the law in its own hands and kidnap somebody, even if the person kidnapped is a wrongdoer. And whether it can allow a group of people to be the accuser as well as the judge as well as the enforcer of the judgement. This particular case is for Pakistan and its citizens to resolve, but we have our own similar issues. Whether it is the activists of the Dukhtaran-e-Millat in J&K throwing acid on young couples in restaurants or attempting to close down movie theatres and internet cafes, or the Shiv Sena or Bajrang Dal folks harassing young couples on Valentine's Day, the basic issues are similar. Can we allow vigilante groups to subvert the law? And if we do, can modern society as we know it survive? Since the basis for such a society is the rule of law. I am with you Sharique, that Shariat should not be applied by force on anybody. But my reason for the same differs from yours and therefore let me lay it out. I think that imposing it is wrong inherently, not just because ‘Muslims have moved away from religion’. Even if they had not moved away from religion, I believe that imposition is wrong and is in fact counterproductive. Furthermore, I think it would be unreligious as well.

Religion is between a person and his God. No other person should have a right to judge what is in somebody else’s heart. And no other person should have a right to impose religious beliefs on somebody. Therefore, I think your solution of imposing it gradually is almost as bad as what these veiled women in the video are trying to do. If people want it, they can live their lives according to the Shariat (to the extent that it does not impact others who don’t want to live by it). Beyond that, no society, whether Muslim majority or not, has a right to demand religious beliefs from its citizens. Beyond being plain wrong, it is a gross violation of the Universal Covenant on Human Rights that most nations have signed.

In this particular instance, the questions go deeper than the imposition of Shariat. The question is whether the state can allow a vigilante group to take the law in its own hands and kidnap somebody, even if the person kidnapped is a wrongdoer. And whether it can allow a group of people to be the accuser as well as the judge as well as the enforcer of the judgement.

This particular case is for Pakistan and its citizens to resolve, but we have our own similar issues. Whether it is the activists of the Dukhtaran-e-Millat in J&K throwing acid on young couples in restaurants or attempting to close down movie theatres and internet cafes, or the Shiv Sena or Bajrang Dal folks harassing young couples on Valentine’s Day, the basic issues are similar. Can we allow vigilante groups to subvert the law? And if we do, can modern society as we know it survive? Since the basis for such a society is the rule of law.

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