Congrats, you know that they follow Islam, but I am afraid how you came to know about their beliefs that they follow Islam. I think you keep the same belief for hindu terrorists, hindu criminals, hindu drunkards (oh sorry the holy Som-ras drinking hindus), hindu goons, hindus who sign in and sigh out in prostiture homes. By the way whats so wrong in prostitution, BTW it was even practised in temples in ancient India, and in the holy book of kamasutra.

“Your sentence proves my point again that you believe in too many myths.”

You might be more well versed in believing myths, fairy tales and absurd stories, coz your scriptures give lot of scope for that, but pls spare me for this shot.

“don’t be in a hurry to feel sorry for others ”

Truth cant help feeling sorry for the falsehood it is surrounded with.

‘Despite the very obvious benefit of sharia in SA, no one not even the other islamic countries, UAE etc want to follow it strictly and perfectly(according to yourself), forget billions of others in the world”

This is the proof of the fact though India is secular on papers is communal in practice, and Islamic countries though islamic are secular in practice, making no discrimination in punishment between muslims or non-muslims.

“security at the kind of cost that you have to pay in terms of freedom is not acceptable.”

Freedom obtained from security is the ultimate freedom acceptable.

‘Now if the victim can’t bring 4 good muslims to sit and watch her being raped, she will be punished not the rapist. ”

You dont need to sound yourself a fool, so better try to know the laws before giving careless remarks. I will die of laughing.

” 73 year old guy can marry 12 yr old girl as his 4th wife(at a given point of time, he could have married many more in his life), then after a few days he can get rid of the girl with triple talaq legally.”

I wonder why that poor old guy has to come all the way to your lovely place to commit crime. I wonder why he could not afford to commit that act in his own native place. So now you know the difference between the laws of lands. I guess you can pass this piece of advice to sex starving poor hindu priests and shankaracharyas who have to get satisfied with mere pornography or prostitution in the temples.

“A scientist does scientific research not translations. that’s why the greek and indian scientists didn’t translate”

Islam not only produced scientists but also translators, scribes, writers and scholars of all excellence. Ohh! I forgot that even ‘zero’ needed translation, and have to wait for the advent of Islam, to get notified not only in India but also in the entire world.

“Religion doesn’t determine who becomes a better scientist, Peace , free thinking do. ”

Peace and free thinking are the derivatives of religion and in turn thus become the source of science and literature.

“In all your posts you jump up and down like a teenager in the locker room, shouting “mine is better ,mine is better”. ”

The spirit of truth makes one even a teenager full of confidence, courage and enthusiasm and giving one the right to say ‘he is better’. BTW my age is not very far away from a teenager.

‘If you read history you will know development took place whenever and where ever peace prevailed.”

If that is the case then the modern day world’s maximum and most of the discoveries and inventions in almost all the fields of science took place after the advent of Islam. So Islam is indeed peaceful.
http://www.wonderfulinfo.com/winfo/muslminv.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~salems2/scientific_inventions.htm

“You can’t forcibly convert scintist and claim, islam makes great scintists.)”

Ohh! I really pity that poor scientist who have to wait for ages for the advent of Islam, so that he could convert and then proclaim or make his invention.

“Hindus(guess all polytheistic religions) always saw their religion as a living , evolving one, not some writings on stone. ”

All man made religions only feel the need to reform and evolve, But God made religion already descends most evolved, most reformed, most organized and most advanced.

“Give up the myth that truth is in some book.”

If hindus doesnt have the truth in their book, or if their have got corrupted since the passage of time, or if they have all sorts of illogical dogmas, absurd myths and fairy tales, does that mean all religions should stop following their holy books?

“Are you saying you won’t welcome reform to stop honour killings in muslim world?”

Honour killings are never related to religion or used by priestly class for their monopoly and religious corruption. It is something related to culture, family pride and honour which can be seen even in north indian hindu culture and among sikhs in punjab. Though it is related with muslims countries it is practised all over the world and still I dont find it any worse than the hindu practise of burning women for dowry after marriage. Its a social stigma instead of religious stigma. UNICEF has reported that in India, more than 5,000 brides are killed annually because their marriage dowries are considered insufficient. So dont try to have narrow escape by giving wrong comparisons.

“Where did you get this, Ibrahim and bakrid? Hindus don’t.”

Ohhh! Really. Tantricism, child sacrificees, is one of the biggest crimes taking place in Hyderabad (let alone all over India). Some years ago a hindu child was rescued by some muslims in a place called Towli Chowki in hyderabd. Check out this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4903390.stm
http://ezinearticles.com/?Child-Sacrifice&id=82538
See this

Witch Burning and Human Sacrifice in India by Richard Petraitis Witch Burning and Human Sacrifice in India

http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v08/n11/reall-news-v08-n11.pdf.

So you are so innocent about child killings in hinduism, dont be so innocent and come out of your cocoon and see the practical world around you. No wonder such type of horrible and inhuman practices can be attached to Hinduism only.

“quote hindu scriptures that support devdasi system, as it came to exist during 1800’s( was it because of the influence of mujra system , may be). ”

Are you so ignorant of the facts. Devdasis did not came to exist arounf 1800′s but came to a stop around 1800′s due to christian and Islamic influence. Concept of devdasis find its origin in ancient holy hindu religious history.
Reference to dancing girls in temples is found in Kalidasa’s “Meghadhoot”. It is said that dancing girls were present at the time of worship in the Mahakal Temple of Ujjain. Some scholars are of the opinion that probably the custom of dedicating girls to temples became quite common in the 6th century CE, as most of the Puranas containing reference to it have been written during this period. Several Puranas recommended that arrangements should be made to enlist the services of singing girls for worship at temples.
Do you wanna give the credit of writing puranas to muslims. Pls dont be so generous.

‘sadly, true, and spread to Islam too. According to recent studies muslims even practice untouchability. ”

Ohhh! So great, so now you will say the origin of casteism was done by muslims or may be brahmins were muslims. Dont you find this an ‘eye opener’ or may be it will help you proove your baseless arguments. My dear the teachings of Islam are in exact contrast to hindu practices as Islam teaches equality, brotherhood and fraternity. Never dare try to attach the inhuman polytheistic practices to Islam.

“grand mufti of Saudi Arabia freshly clarified that girls above 10 yrs can be married off. So do you support it? or are you going to tell me you know Islam better than that guy. ”

Atleast that girl might had reached her puberty. But in hinduism girls are married off even when they are kids.
In an effort to curb the practice of child marriages the states of Rajasthan, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka and Himachal Pradesh have passed laws that mandate the registration of all marriages in order to make it a valid marriage.[citation needed] However, mass marriages that involve children are frequently ignored by authorities.[10]

According to “National Plan of Action for Children 2005,” (published by the Department of Women and Child Development of India) a goal has been set to eliminate child marriage completely by 2010. This plan is proving to be successful, though it is still difficult to monitor every child due to the sheer population of India.[11]

According to UNICEF’s “State of the World’s Children-2009” report, 47% of India’s women aged 20-24 were married before the legal age of 18, with 56% in rural areas.[12] The report also showed that 40% of the world’s child marriages occur in India.[13]

“Those muslims who claim that islam is superior to other religions and koran is the only true book alone need to defend Islam and prove their claims.”

All practising muslims will claim the above point coz they believe in that and they have faith in it. And they have the right to clam as they are not forcing anybody to believe the same but then, I wonder why Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today.

1.

As far as ignorance is concerned, ofcourse not, coz being a follower of Islam, no one can afford to remain ignorant, since Islam is the light of the world, full of wisdom and knowledge.

I meant ignorant like those islamic terrorists, muslim criminals, muslim drunkards and drug addicts, muslim goondas, muslims who sign in and sign out in prostitute homes etc. They too follow Islam, so. Your sentence proves my point again that you believe in too many myths.

2.
If you can’t differentiate between the terms “Arrogance” and “Truth” I am afraid you need to clear your basics english language.

Truth makes one modest. as they say full pot never spills,only half-filled one does. It may not even be arrogance, you are right. In all your posts you jump up and down like a teenager in the locker room, shouting “mine is better ,mine is better”. He does this not because, he thinks his is better but because he is worried , others are thinking his is worse than theirs. He needs to get out and see more life and world to actually know that, everyone’s is serving the purpose fine and fantastic. All women are not running after one guy, because what matters ultimately is very personal and far from what appears logical. So , even if he had the best ,it was of no particular consequence. No need to say what is best is a subjective opinion not an established fact. By the way words like truth sound fantastic but, can you tell me what exactly it is in a sentence.

3.

“If you dont know the insight of the islamic laws, I am sorry fo you. Come in practical world, instead of staying in fairy tale land. First of all no country in world is perfectly islamic, saudi arabia being closer to islam but even that is not completely islamic. You should be knowing that the least crimes that occur in the world is in saudi arabia, and countries like India and US comes under the list of high crime countries. Accrding to statistics there is one rape case recorded every 1.3 minutes, and in India every 54 mins one rape case is reported, every 26 mins one case of molestation is reported, and every 1hr 24mins one dowry death case is reported and this survey was way back in 1990’s, and now the crime might had reached even more. How many rape cases and dowry death cases you heard in Saudi arabia? Similarly othee Islamic laws too have their wn insight and anyone failing to realise its essence needs some knowledge to understand them.”

don’t be in a hurry to feel sorry for others , you may end up being a very sad person. Despite the very obvious benefit of sharia in SA, no one not even the other islamic countries, UAE etc want to follow it strictly and perfectly(according to yourself), forget billions of others in the world( not even that keralite muslim whose eyes were to be guaged out but was saved by manmohan singh), security at the kind of cost that you have to pay in terms of freedom is not acceptable. People have different priorities. Tell this to human rights activists in India fighting for rights of terrorists.

Also there are other reasons for low rates of crime, take rapes.. Now if the victim can’t bring 4 good muslims to sit and watch her being raped, she will be punished not the rapist. Now it is difficult to make such arrangements as she may not know when she will be raped. so , after getting raped don’t even tell your relatives, you know what will happen if she tells(remember woman’s honour is very important!).
Now take adultary, a 73 year old guy can marry 12 yr old girl as his 4th wife(at a given point of time, he could have married many more in his life), then after a few days he can get rid of the girl with triple talaq legally. Now why would he go for adultary? Also, go to my city, Hyderabad to see sign in and sign out arab mutah and mysiar marriages. Ofcourse, it’s a shame, that after all these facilities being provided by SA, still some need to be executed for rape and adultary charges.

Now, I hope you got some insight.

4.
“Ohh really! Then why is it that the translation of such books happened after the advent of islam? Or was the “translation of books” were waiting for Islam to arrive and hordes of ppl to accept Islam? The era of Greeks philosophy and literature began from its golden history starting at 2000 BC till its end long before the advent of Jesus christ, by the rising power of romans. Why no one dared to translate all such scriptures and literature in their own languages and spread it in the world? Where were the worlds most rationalistic and intelligent dogma (hinduism) following ppl and other ppl of the world or was it that everyone was waiting for the Islam to come and give us what has been stored by their greek masters. You are totally wrong and misinformed. And if greeks themselves were having so much literature and that too in such authentic (note that much of the greek literature was corrected by muslims )form why they themselves did not translate it into worlds different languages and spread it across the world? They would have got a very easy opportunity to spread knowledge and also get name, fame and status in the whole worlds political scenario? Or do you mean to say that translation was any body’s cup of tea. Just gain some knowledge before giving such careless comments.”

A scientist does scientific research not translations. that’s why the greek and indian scientists didn’t translate. Religion doesn’t determine who becomes a better scientist, Peace , free thinking do. Science developed in almost all parts of the world , a country or religion or even race has nothing to do. If you read history you will know development took place whenever and where ever peace prevailed. In India, Gupta period , peace prevailed and scientific advance happened. Same with greeks. then middle east was the comparitively peaceful place for a short while, that’s when the translations happened there. Then europe saw peaceful times, and renaissance is what we saw. Peace, prosperity and free thinking are the key not religion.

5.
“Whats your point?? All muslims present in the world are converted from their parent religion. Islam is not a sect or race, its a religion.”

My point is they were first generation muslims, who were influenced by another religion not just islam, and also might have converted to islam to avoid persecution and just focus on their work. (You can’t forcibly convert scintist and claim, islam makes great scintists.)Islam can’t take the credit for their work for several reasons (they were mostly translations, they had infulence of other religions, and may be simply were forced to convert)is my point.

6. Hindus(guess all polytheistic religions) always saw their religion as a living , evolving one, not some writings on stone. There are no such stones or books. Give up the myth that truth is in some book. It is something we have to find for ourselves. when one simply restricts their experience and wisdom to one book, losing so much that is out there, all one is left with is narrow-mind. Anyway first one needs to know what exactly that word “truth” means.

1.Burn their women folk to perform sati?

Are you saying you won’t welcome reform to stop honour killings in muslim world?

2. Why dont they sacrifice their children in temples?

Where did you get this, Ibrahim and bakrid? Hindus don’t.

3. Why dont they revive the tradition of “dev dasis” once again?

Won’t you support reform the practice of marrying off of muslim woman to koran to avoid property distribution, very much done in Pakistan. quote hindu scriptures that support devdasi system, as it came to exist during 1800′s( was it because of the influence of mujra system , may be).

4. Though casteism is still prevalant and still goin strong.

sadly, true, and spread to Islam too. According to recent studies muslims even practice untouchability. Heard of Backward caste and dalit muslims asking for quotas. Backward caste muslims already get.

5. Why dont they go back to “Prohibition of widow remarriage”

Even manusmriti doesn’t ban widow remarriage. It came into practice by hindus during medeival times,I wonder why.

6. Why dont they go back to ” child marriage”

grand mufti of Saudi Arabia freshly clarified that girls above 10 yrs can be married off. So do you support it? or are you going to tell me you know Islam better than that guy.

MMM,

“Why does it have to be muslims and Islam that needs defending from absurd questions and wishful thinking of some zealots?”

Those muslims who claim that islam is superior to other religions and koran is the only true book alone need to defend Islam and prove their claims. Other muslims and hindus need to defend or prove nothing, simply because they are not claiming any such stuff.

Thanks for your nice words.

They were really encouraging, and muslims today needs encouragement from each other, to not only follow the religion of peace (Islam), but also spreading awareness among non-muslim brothers and sisters.

I am all behind you on the stance you have taken. Why does it have to be muslims and Islam that needs defending from absurd questions and wishful thinking of some zealots? We should take the offensive to them and rather than defending Islam? They don’t have answers to some questions I asked them and they will never have the answer, it is my challenge. Anyhow, I must congratulate brother/sister sshama again. May Allah answer your efforts.

@Ram:”So, what has your religion taught you, Arrogance(”Hinduism is an outdated religion shrouded in mysteries and its tenets lost in the haze of myths,”) or ignorance?”

As far as ignorance is concerned, ofcourse not, coz being a follower of Islam, no one can afford to remain ignorant, since Islam is the light of the world, full of wisdom and knowledge. If you can’t differentiate between the terms “Arrogance” and “Truth” I am afraid you need to clear your basics english language.

“You mean eye for an eye? Killing for adultery? Burqa? triple talaqs? Polygamy? I can go on. please elaborate based on which of these other religions reformed?”

If you dont know the insight of the islamic laws, I am sorry fo you. Come in practical world, instead of staying in fairy tale land. First of all no country in world is perfectly islamic, saudi arabia being closer to islam but even that is not completely islamic. You should be knowing that the least crimes that occur in the world is in saudi arabia, and countries like India and US comes under the list of high crime countries. Accrding to statistics there is one rape case recorded every 1.3 minutes, and in India every 54 mins one rape case is reported, every 26 mins one case of molestation is reported, and every 1hr 24mins one dowry death case is reported and this survey was way back in 1990′s, and now the crime might had reached even more. How many rape cases and dowry death cases you heard in Saudi arabia? Similarly othee Islamic laws too have their wn insight and anyone failing to realise its essence needs some knowledge to understand them.

“most books mention that muslim role was only translating Indian , greek books on Math”

Ohh really! Then why is it that the translation of such books happened after the advent of islam? Or was the “translation of books” were waiting for Islam to arrive and hordes of ppl to accept Islam? The era of Greeks philosophy and literature began from its golden history starting at 2000 BC till its end long before the advent of Jesus christ, by the rising power of romans. Why no one dared to translate all such scriptures and literature in their own languages and spread it in the world? Where were the worlds most rationalistic and intelligent dogma (hinduism) following ppl and other ppl of the world or was it that everyone was waiting for the Islam to come and give us what has been stored by their greek masters. You are totally wrong and misinformed. And if greeks themselves were having so much literature and that too in such authentic (note that much of the greek literature was corrected by muslims )form why they themselves did not translate it into worlds different languages and spread it across the world? They would have got a very easy opportunity to spread knowledge and also get name, fame and status in the whole worlds political scenario? Or do you mean to say that translation was any body’s cup of tea. Just gain some knowledge before giving such careless comments.

“Also,Many of these scientists you boast about were first generation converts(jews or persians)”

Whats your point?? All muslims present in the world are converted from their parent religion. Islam is not a sect or race, its a religion.

@Shama: “I have read a lot of Hindu philosophy and far from being outdated, I consider it to be one of the most significant and least understood philosophies of our time”

Ohh really. I dont know which version you are studying and got introduced to?

If Hinduism was so modern why was there felt the need to reform it. Why there was a surge of reformists in the early 19th century engaged in reforming it.

If Hinduism is so modern why dont todays hindus:

1.Burn their women folk to perform sati?

2. Why dont they sacrifice their children in temples?

3. Why dont they revive the tradition of “dev dasis” once again?

4. Though casteism is still prevalant and still goin strong.

5. Why dont they go back to “Prohibition of widow remarriage”

6. Why dont they go back to ” child marriage”

Come on Shama, dont try to be pseudo secularist or apologetic.

Re: your post “Rethinking Islam and Hinduism”

Islam has coexisted with Hinduism for 1400 years. I have often wondered if there is a connection between Abraham and Sara and Brahma and Saraswati. However, until we can invent a time machine that takes us far back enough to figure it out, there is something we can do.

The most important one, according to me, is if you are going to follow a faith, at least take the trouble to learn it. IMO and in my experience, too many people are too lazy to think exactly what it is their faith involves. This is for all people but especially for Muslims, many of whom read a Quran but in translation, which means they read someone else’s interpretation of what the Quran says. And miss out on some important stuff like: Do not be too hasty with the Quran, until its revelation to you is complete, but say, O my Lord, increase my knowledge![20:114. Another one which is sadly little used in many Muslims is this one:”You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.” 17:36

I think once we actually pay attention to our religion, we’ll be better religionists.

There is another person posting here with the name shama. Only difference is small s in beginning.

I think this is highly confusing and there should be some kind of check to make sure two people cannot have the same username. This can otherwise create mischief by misrepresenting the other user’s opinions without meaning to.

e.g.

“Hinduism is an outdated religion shrouded in mysteries and its tenets lost in the haze of myths, so the great reformists for guiding the hindu society and in the process of uplifting the social condition of common hindu came up with lot of reformations.”

THIS IS NOT MY OPINION.

I have read a lot of Hindu philosophy and far from being outdated, I consider it to be one of the most significant and least understood philosophies of our time. Hinduism is a system, rather than a religion, there are six major schools of philosophy in it and unlike the wannabe secularists of the modern age, is system of thought that has already explored and achieved the elements of a perfect multicultural society, embraced by the words “Truth is one: (though) the wise call it by various names’ (Rigveda I 164.46. While other world cultures are struggling with multiculturalism and doing ridiculous things like banning this banning that, and in general pretending that intolerance of a point of view they do not agree with, is freedom of expression, Hinduism is the perfect syncretic system.

As an Indian Muslim, I am proud to be part of this culture and I completely embrace it. Any one who disagrees is free to vote with their feet and move to where their idea of perfection exists. I happen to believe that as Indians, we should lead the world by promoting our culture, the distillation of thousands of years of experience of embracing all kinds of thought and taking what is good in every kind of philosophy.

I frequently surprise my atheist friends [who think they invented atheism] by directing them, not to Buddhism, but to the Carvaka school of thought. This is an atheist movement within Hinduism that came about the same time as Islam did, ie 1400 years ago.

Similarly, I frequently surprise my Christian and Muslim friends by telling them that even Jesus and Mohammed have been considered as avatars by some Hindu scholars.

In Islam, the Quran tells us that a prophet was given to all people, all tribes and that we should not distinguish between them. [La nufarriqu bayna ahadin min rusulih, 2:285]. The Quran also tells us that in the beginning we were one [Mankind was one single nation, 2:213] and we were made into tribes and nations so we may know and recognise each other [People, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. 49:13]. I believe it is highly ignorant to presume that anyone knows that his or her system is “better”, simply because they made a choice to follow that one. All of us are humans and the least we can do is act like humans and extend the same courtesy to other humans.

Sorry for the rant, but I wanted to make this VERY CLEAR.

“Whats your point?? If you go to a Doctor to cure your sickness, do you mean I also should go to a doctor?? Hinduism is an outdated religion shrouded in mysteries and its tenets lost in the haze of myths, so the great reformists for guiding the hindu society and in the process of uplifting the social condition of common hindu came up with lot of reformations. We appreciate their efforts that today a common hindu is far from advanced in education and is “break free” from the absurd rituals and rites which had for long held the progress and advancement of hindus social conditions mercilessly under ransom. But Islam had always been an advanced and updated religion, and even the basis of hindu religious reformists movements in india and renaissance in europe and UK. So where’s the question of reforming an already highly organized and rational religion like Islam.

“It was NOT Islamic (in Pakistan ) to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. ”You were supposed to say,” Dr. Hoodbhoy recounted, ”that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then BY THE WILL of ALLAH water was created”

Again there is no point whatsoever in trying to relate the islamic saying “INSHA ALLAH” with the advancement and scientific development in islamic societies. The era of beginning of modern scientific revolution was brought forth by none other than muslims, inspired by one and only one book “Quran”. And not only in the field of science but also in day to day life activities a muslim says “Insha Allah”. Does that mean he doesnt do anything and sit idle. There is no relation whatsoever.”

1.So, what has your religion taught you, Arrogance(“Hinduism is an outdated religion shrouded in mysteries and its tenets lost in the haze of myths,”) or ignorance?

2.
“But Islam had always been an advanced and updated religion, and even the basis of hindu religious reformists movements in india and renaissance in europe and UK. So where’s the question of reforming an already highly organized and rational religion like Islam.”

You mean eye for an eye? Killing for adultery? Burqa? triple talaqs? Polygamy? I can go on. please elaborate based on which of these other religions reformed?

1.
“The era of beginning of modern scientific revolution was brought forth by none other than muslims, inspired by one and only one book “Quran”. ”

most books mention that muslim role was only translating Indian , greek books on Math. Also,Many of these scientists you boast about were first generation converts(jews or persians). For example Al-Khwarizmi (known for algebra)was a zorastrian as an youngster(was born in uzbekistan, was part of persia at that time and we all know of persecution of zorastrians, so mostly converted forcibly). Research on those so called muslim pioneers of scientific revolution.

You seem to beleive in too many myths. Islam is perfect… The world would have been in darkness but for some muslims and koran… quite immature to say the least.Get out and see the world, you will know how wonderful the creation is nothing is monopolized by any specific group. Intelligents and Idiots all are equally distributed all over the world.