Whether it is Bosnia or Gaza, or even Iraq, graphic details of all sufferings are available universally. As a result, even if people have not been able to do something about it in concrete terms, substantial noise levels have been created to make the world sit up and take notice.

There is none of this as far as Kashmir is concerned. If all that you say is happening even today, please put it in the media. There are plenty of Muslim newspapers. However, the Muslim circles do not seem to be saying all that you do, not even a fraction of it.

I can feel your palpable angst, but do you believe you could do something to reach out to impartial Indians rather than only vent your anger against us?

Of course you don’t believe the reports about Indian army atrocities. You don’t live here, and you don’t bother reading old reports from the international media, or HRW and Amnesty International, so you’ve never heard about how in 1993, the Indian army torched downtown Srinagar, then declared the area under curfew and opened fire on people as they fled the burning city…going so far as to gather on the banks of the Jhelum and shooting at civilians fleeing by boat, killing over 125. Or when they did the same arson/massacre attack in Sopore earlier that year. Or when they cordoned off the village of Kunan Poshpora and gang raped scores of women…from little girls to grandmothers. Or the days when thousands of locals were dragged off into the infamous Papa I and Papa II interrogation centers to be tortured…never to be heard from again till their broken, burnt, mangled corpses were pulled out of the Jhelum weeks later. The list of atrocities goes on and on…the proof is all out there…but it seems that most Indians prefer to live in blissful ignorance.

As for the pro-India terrorist groups, the Indian government has admitted to using surrendered militants to create terrorist organizations like the Ikhwan-ul-Muslimeen to carry out false flag operations. I believe the GoI prefers to call them “renegades” or “counter militants.” Perhaps the only institution more hated than the Indian army in Kashmir, the Ikhwanis are responsible for countless civilian deaths. Of course, the GoI has rewarded its loyal terrorists with bureaucratic and political offices.

Oops! that shud read:
Re the “piousness” of the invading rapsits Pathans,so just because the Times believed so, rest of the world too shud believe? Give me a break!

Whatever I have written about PoK is after I learned about them from Pakistani websites and not from something written by Indians.

When ppl refuse to cooperate with the army in flushing out the terrorists such collateral damages would occur. If u ppl dont want that, then ur only option is to cooperate with the army but from ur comments it is very clear that ppl like u r actually abetting terrorism by ur refusal to condemn the terrorists. Learn from the Sikhs of Punjab who cooperated with the armed forces and brought peace to Punjab. I would condemn the actions of the armed forces in JK only in those cases where they fired upon protesters who were only protesting in a non-violent manner but most anti-India protests get violent and the consequence have to be borne

“Ikhwanis” were at first anti-India terrorists but after realising Pakistan’s game plan and the futility of armed struggle, they laid down their arms but as they made enemies of their former comrades, they had no option other than to cooperate with India and bear arms to protect themselves. India is in every right to use them against Paki-backed terrorists. Infact I would call the Ikhwanis patriotic. Readers who are interested in knowing more about Ikhwanis pls go to this link:

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=11684

U have given some figures for AJK and not the whole of POK. No one has the real figures for NA coz Pakistan doesnt want it to be published. AJK is a small portion compared to JK. So even if ur figures r true it cant be compared to JK. Muslim Paki Punjabis being systematically settled in PoK are not imagination of outsiders. These are facts written about by Pakistanis themselves.

Re the brutality of the invading rapsits Pathans,so just because the Times believed so, rest of the world too shud believe? Give me a break!

Enough of discussing the past. Lets discuss the future of JK. India will never leave JK and thats for sure. I consider u a separatist. So who r ur leaders?? Leaders who dont want to provide the basic amenities for the ppl they claim to represent? Leaders who have to be guarded by the armed forces of the country they love to hate from terrorists backed by the country that claims to provide “moral and diplomatic support” to the “Kashmir cause”? Leaders who have to be treated by doctors of the country they love to hate coz the country that loves them from the core of its heart doesnt have the facilities to treat them? Some leaders eh? The bottomline is that Kashmiris haven’t got what it takes to sustain a credible independence movement. US president-elect Obama is making some pro-separatist voices but India has a weapon that can shut that up. Ppl like u have no idea about the prosperity awaiting JK once the guns fall silent in the Valley and elsewhere in JK.

Pakis always felt proud about Swat being their Kashmir valley but look at God’s justice. What Pakis had wanted in Kashmir Valley is happening in Swat! How about a trip to Swat to see for ur self the joys of living under Taliban. I am sure u wont miss ur Kashmir Valley in Swat valley.

If you talk about excesses committed by the army or other security forces, I can understand that it could have happened, though not in the same magnitude that you talk about.

However, I am not aware of any Pro India terrorist outfits. Please let us know a little more about that.

Your skewed world-view is so laughably bigoted I’m not even sure its worth the effort to sit here and respond to your post.

Collateral damage? You call burning down towns and villages and opening fire on terrified civilians fleeing the inferno collateral damage? You call shooting at mourners in funeral processions and unarmed protesters collateral damage? You call establishing pro-India militant/terrorist groups to attack and intimidate civilians collateral damage? The entire world has recognized the shameless atrocities and gross human rights violations perpetrated by your army and your “Ikhwani” terrorists. Your level of denial is absolutely disgusting.

As for the rest of your nonsense…AJK has an official literacy rate of over 65% in 2007, compared to less than 49% in the Kashmir Valley in the 2001 census. Primary school enrollment is over 90%. Unlike you, I’ve traveled extensively on both sides of the LoC, and infrastructure and development in AJK makes the Kashmir Valley look like its stuck in the middle ages. As for the nonsense about Punjabi settlement…the original inhabitants of AJK are Pahari and Punjabi-speakers who are incorrectly labeled “Punjabi-settlers” by ignorant outsiders. In reality, non state subjects are prohibited from purchasing land in AJK.

“Both the Indian and foreign press widely reported the Pukhtoon tribesmen’s excesses committed in Baramula — their ‘saturnalia of looting, raping and killing’ of 3,000 non-combatants, including some Roman Catholic nuns. However, apart from the Baramula brutalities, there is little record of other atrocities by the tribesmen. Indeed, The Times [January 1, 1948] believed that after they became ‘more disciplined, and when the[ir] outrages ceased the Muslim population increasingly rallied to their support’. Thereafter, Pakistan became more and more popular with Muslims.”
Taken from “Would a plebiscite have resolved the Kashmir dispute?”
Christopher Snedden
South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies
April 1, 2005

Please say the same thing to your Muslim brothers in Sind, Baluchistan, Pukthoonkhwa and most importantly East Bengal.

Pakistan has a long and rich history of suppressing secular and democratic movements based on linguistic nationalism. A leader of the stature of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan was imprisoned for 30 years. Former chief ministers of provincial governments are assassinated.

Why don’t you check out the terrible plight of your cousins, the denizens of Swat valley ? Most people wonder (with a reason) that the Pak army is actually aiding and abetting the Taliban there in their murderous rampage.

One man cannot change the destiny of a nation. The destiny of Kashmir lies in the strength of Kashmiri politics. Strong politics build a strong nation.

Let’s hope that the current elections in Kashmir is the first step towards building strong politics in the valley – where the voice of every single Kashmiri is represented, and none gets killed or assassinated for it : either by the Indian army or by the so called army of God (Hijb-ul-Mujahideen).

Why shud Pakistan have heavy military presence in POK when they have handed it over to Paki terror groups focusing on Kashmir?? We saw on international media how these terrorists were roaming free in POK during the earthquake. As for POK’s own President, Parliament,etc who wants that when they are at the mercy of Pakistan central govt? And just like u wont raise any voice against the Paki backed terrorists coz of their fear, the ppl of POK too wont raise any voice against the terrorists.

There are no published statistics to prove ur point of so-called AK being better than JK on economic and social parameters. I agree Mirpur area is better developed and thats not b’coz of steps taken by Pakistan but bcoz of investments by the large Mirpuri expatriate population residing in UK. Other areas of “AK” where u wud find some semblance of development are areas populated by Paki Punjabi Muslims. Do u know what is happening in Norther Areas? U nor me wouldn’t know anything from there coz there is an information blackout clamped by Pak. But from whatever is know about NA, it compares well with sub-Saharan Africa. Pakistan’s achievements in Norther Area are economic mismanagement, local corruption and inter-ethnic conflict. The Shias of NA are sitting ducks just like Shias in rest of Pakistan for Sunni suicide bombers. Is anything like this happening anywhere in India?? Then what about Ahmediyas? In India they are free to practice their brand of Islam. I am not bluffing on this …u just check out Pakistani newspapers/websites for these facts.

Its very clear from ur posts that for ppl like u the killing of Kashmiris by Paki terrorists from 1947 till date are immaterial and what matter for u are the collateral deaths of Kashmiris by Indian army while performing their duty of cleansing Kashmir of Paki backed terrorists.

Shahnaz wrote:
There are no reports of major Pathan atrocities except the Baramulla massacre…in fact, contemporary newspaper accounts report that after Baramulla, the Pathan forces became significantly more disciplined, and the local Muslim population actually rallied to their support.

U want me to believe that crap?? SO after raping the women of Baramulla and killing their menfolk, the Pathans repented and became pious Muslims again and all u Kashmiris forgave them and supported them??

If u want us to believe ur version of history, pls quote from neutral sources and also give the links for cross reference like I have done.

Unlike you, I’ve been to both mainland Pakistan and Azad Kashmir before. There is no oppressive military presence in Azad Kashmir. The area is better developed, and has significantly higher literacy and school enrollment than the Valley. It has its own elected legislative assembly, president, and PM. As for its autonomy, Pakistan clearly hasn’t respected that (just like India)…but at the end of the day, unlike India, Pakistan hasn’t felt the need to massacre tens of thousands of civilians in the area to maintain control.

As for your second post, I’m not particularly interested in going over massacres from 60 years ago, but I never cease to be amazed by how people like you gleefully recount the crimes committed by the Pathans in Baramulla, but conveniently ignore what your own people did in Jammu in 1947. Once the native pro-Pakistan rebellion broke out in Mirpur and Poonch, the Maharaja sent his army, along with RSS volunteers and reinforcements from the Patiala State Forces (by then a part of India, and under the command of an Indian army general) to Jammu, where they massacred an estimated 200,000 Muslim civilians in an effort to ethnically cleanse the area (for the sake of comparison, the Pathans, who invaded in response to the ethnic cleansing of Jammu, are believed to have killed an estimated 3,000 civilians). There are no reports of major Pathan atrocities except the Baramulla massacre…in fact, contemporary newspaper accounts report that after Baramulla, the Pathan forces became significantly more disciplined, and the local Muslim population actually rallied to their support.

Even today, the Indian terrorists, whether in the army or in the GoI sponsored militant outfits, are committing the same crimes, but of course you’ll never raise your voice against them.