Comments on: Muslims in Denial of Collective Responsibility? http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/ A Window Into The Indian Muslim Life Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:21:41 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Mohib http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-23922 Mohib Thu, 09 Aug 2007 19:09:46 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-23922 Viren: I don't think The Da Vinci Code and The Satanic Verses criticized the church and quran respectively. Both are fictional accounts with historical narratives interwoven in the story. I also don't agree with the theme that only Muslims protest violently. The opposition of Sikh zealots against Bole So Nihal (the Sunny Deol movie), the recent Gurmeet Singh Ram Rahim saga, the Gujjar-Meena riots, the burning of a library in Pune which helped James Laine write his book about Sivaji, the violent protests against MF Hussain, the burning of copies of The Da Vinci Code in Mumbai and the killing of innocent girls in Chennai comes to mind immediately. Needless to say it is all very sad and unfortunate. Viren:

I don’t think The Da Vinci Code and The Satanic Verses criticized the church and quran respectively. Both are fictional accounts with historical narratives interwoven in the story.

I also don’t agree with the theme that only Muslims protest violently. The opposition of Sikh zealots against Bole So Nihal (the Sunny Deol movie), the recent Gurmeet Singh Ram Rahim saga, the Gujjar-Meena riots, the burning of a library in Pune which helped James Laine write his book about Sivaji, the violent protests against MF Hussain, the burning of copies of The Da Vinci Code in Mumbai and the killing of innocent girls in Chennai comes to mind immediately. Needless to say it is all very sad and unfortunate.

]]> By: Viren http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-23921 Viren Thu, 09 Aug 2007 18:37:18 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-23921 How you protest is really important. Just to show you the difference - Both 'Da Vinci Code' and 'Satanic Verses' criticised the church and koran resp. But look at the huge difference in the way they received reactions. Da Vinci Code received open discussion and criticism while Verses received violent protest and fatwa to kill author and publisher of the book. This is a big difference to be thought about. How you protest is really important. Just to show you the difference – Both ‘Da Vinci Code’ and ‘Satanic Verses’ criticised the church and koran resp. But look at the huge difference in the way they received reactions. Da Vinci Code received open discussion and criticism while Verses received violent protest and fatwa to kill author and publisher of the book. This is a big difference to be thought about.

]]> By: Kit http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-23868 Kit Wed, 08 Aug 2007 19:39:32 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-23868 Colective responsibility, you asset, is the crux of Suroor's argument, however, it will not be a detriment to the elimenation from within the Muslum community of these wantly violent groups. When you assert "It will also make the work of the reformist Muslims, who seek to reach out and create understanding by dialogue with non-Muslims, difficult." Admitting that Islam is binding ideological tenet of those who blow up busses, will not make non-Muslims hate all non muslims, for the most already can't tell the difference. But what it will do is make it absolutely clear that it is necessary to define orthadoxy in Islam, because of the delitreous effects of not having a norm to judge these aggressive acts against. Unfortunately, defining 'Submission' and what exactly one submits to as a muslim, is difficult, and continuing to argue that these extremists are 'not muslims' because most don't except their actions, does little towards the neccessary goal of redefining the limits of Islam. Colective responsibility, you asset, is the crux of Suroor’s argument, however, it will not be a detriment to the elimenation from within the Muslum community of these wantly violent groups.

When you assert “It will also make the work of the reformist Muslims, who seek to reach out and create understanding by dialogue with non-Muslims, difficult.”

Admitting that Islam is binding ideological tenet of those who blow up busses, will not make non-Muslims hate all non muslims, for the most already can’t tell the difference. But what it will do is make it absolutely clear that it is necessary to define orthadoxy in Islam, because of the delitreous effects of not having a norm to judge these aggressive acts against. Unfortunately, defining ‘Submission’ and what exactly one submits to as a muslim, is difficult, and continuing to argue that these extremists are ‘not muslims’ because most don’t except their actions, does little towards the neccessary goal of redefining the limits of Islam.

]]> By: Amit http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-22645 Amit Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:42:01 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-22645 To add to what triple said, please look into <b>how</b> they protested. When you leave that part out, it's a bit disingenuous. The manner of their protest and the resolution of one issue that I know of (images on toilet seats) is polar opposite to that exhibited by rage boy. -Amit To add to what triple said, please look into how they protested. When you leave that part out, it’s a bit disingenuous. The manner of their protest and the resolution of one issue that I know of (images on toilet seats) is polar opposite to that exhibited by rage boy.

-Amit

]]> By: triple http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-22641 triple Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:56:17 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-22641 "Such behaviour is not unique to Muslims. When the Hindu gods were printed on American sandals, Indian Hindus protested" another case of flawed logic, Hindu Gods are common across all Hindus sir, this does not represent tribalism. Hindus have gunuinely believed (rightly or wrongly) that Hindus in bangladesh and pakistan are facing extionction because of their faith. that would be a correct example. but then... “Such behaviour is not unique to Muslims. When the Hindu gods were printed on American sandals, Indian Hindus protested”

another case of flawed logic, Hindu Gods are common across all Hindus sir, this does not represent tribalism. Hindus have gunuinely believed (rightly or wrongly) that Hindus in bangladesh and pakistan are facing extionction because of their faith. that would be a correct example. but then…

]]> By: Sharique http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-22600 Sharique Tue, 24 Jul 2007 13:56:16 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-22600 Ravi, I found this excellent article that explains every such verse. http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2005/04/Article01.shtml Ravi,

I found this excellent article that explains every such verse. http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2005/04/Article01.shtml

]]> By: Deepak http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-22442 Deepak Sun, 22 Jul 2007 05:22:55 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-22442 It's great that muslims are debating terrorism. It's another story that the debate is extremely flawed. I hear two opinions from the muslims in the blogosphere either they support the terrorists or they try to find a middle ground by convincing themselves that Islam is a peaceful religion and it's not the only one that's involved in terrorist activities i.e. by being defensive. Looks like the blogger here seems to subscribe to the latter school of thought. First of all to try to frame the argument by invoking Quran or any other holy book for that matter is a complete moot point. Why does it matter what the Geeta, Bible or the Quran say about violence or terrorism? Why do these people keep going back to what someone wrote thousands of years back? Why the hell should it matter? I fail to understand. Take it from me. It's very simple. terrorism whether it's from LTTE, Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Jews or whatever cannot be tolerated in any society. It has to be irradicated. There are no ifs and buts about it. It does not matter what some old scripture says. You can argue and debate all you want but my friend that's the plain truth. It’s great that muslims are debating terrorism. It’s another story that the debate is extremely flawed. I hear two opinions from the muslims in the blogosphere either they support the terrorists or they try to find a middle ground by convincing themselves that Islam is a peaceful religion and it’s not the only one that’s involved in terrorist activities i.e. by being defensive. Looks like the blogger here seems to subscribe to the latter school of thought. First of all to try to frame the argument by invoking Quran or any other holy book for that matter is a complete moot point. Why does it matter what the Geeta, Bible or the Quran say about violence or terrorism? Why do these people keep going back to what someone wrote thousands of years back? Why the hell should it matter? I fail to understand. Take it from me. It’s very simple. terrorism whether it’s from LTTE, Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Jews or whatever cannot be tolerated in any society. It has to be irradicated. There are no ifs and buts about it. It does not matter what some old scripture says. You can argue and debate all you want but my friend that’s the plain truth.

]]> By: Jai_Choorakkot http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-22325 Jai_Choorakkot Fri, 20 Jul 2007 05:52:37 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-22325 Thanks Manas for clarifying some of my concerns. Das, Rajat, There is a fair difference btwn moderate Muslims and moderate Hindus that I have discovered. We cannot expect moderate Muslims to question the Quran/ Hadiths just because most of us do question our holy books. Even a modern moderate Muslim subscribes to the supremacy of the Quran. We will have to work with them on emphasizing the moderate aspects of the Quran without appearing disrespectful to the work proper. I am of the opinion that modern Muslims quietly and passively may ignore some aspects of the Holy Book that they are uncomfortable with and/or find justifications or interpretations within it for their modern/ different lifestyle within it. We can only hope for their numbers to grow and for them to undertake a silent if slow takeover of the discourse, since unfortunately they cannot ever publicly challenge the more zealous/ orthodox strains. I for one would be happy to let this happen at a pace that they set. Even if they never succeed, I am okay as long as others are not affected adversely. The arrival of the Osama brand of terrorism however sets on this a heightened urgency. While I agree with the majority opinion of this page that most "Islamic" terrorism is more politically driven than anything to do with that religion, one must investigate if there is more 'enabling' for this terrorism within the traditions of Islam than with others and healthily and roundly confront this. Ive been hoping that IM will set this precedent for the Indian Muslim community, it showed various promising signs. I still hope that they can undertake this project, and it will probably help them if we pipe down a little. regards, Jai Thanks Manas for clarifying some of my concerns.

Das, Rajat,

There is a fair difference btwn moderate Muslims and moderate Hindus that I have discovered. We cannot expect moderate Muslims to question the Quran/ Hadiths just because most of us do question our holy books.

Even a modern moderate Muslim subscribes to the supremacy of the Quran. We will have to work with them on emphasizing the moderate aspects of the Quran without appearing disrespectful to the work proper. I am of the opinion that modern Muslims quietly and passively may ignore some aspects of the Holy Book that they are uncomfortable with and/or find justifications or interpretations within it for their modern/ different lifestyle within it.

We can only hope for their numbers to grow and for them to undertake a silent if slow takeover of the discourse, since unfortunately they cannot ever publicly challenge the more zealous/ orthodox strains. I for one would be happy to let this happen at a pace that they set. Even if they never succeed, I am okay as long as others are not affected adversely.

The arrival of the Osama brand of terrorism however sets on this a heightened urgency. While I agree with the majority opinion of this page that most “Islamic” terrorism is more politically driven than anything to do with that religion, one must investigate if there is more ‘enabling’ for this terrorism within the traditions of Islam than with others and healthily and roundly confront this.

Ive been hoping that IM will set this precedent for the Indian Muslim community, it showed various promising signs. I still hope that they can undertake this project, and it will probably help them if we pipe down a little.

regards,
Jai

]]> By: Ravi http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-22294 Ravi Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:20:40 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-22294 Thanks, Sharique! :) Thanks, Sharique! :)

]]> By: Zapod http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/comment-page-2/#comment-22289 Zapod Thu, 19 Jul 2007 19:48:33 +0000 http://indianmuslims.in/muslims-in-denial-of-collective-responsibility/#comment-22289 It is not true that Islam, or any religion for that matter, is a religion of peace. How can religions live together peacefully if they believe fundamentally different truths about the universe? If Christians believe that Jesus is the only savior and Muslims believe that Mohammad is the only savior, there is no way that, except for the sake of occassional practical convenience, they can live in peace together. It is time we accepted this truth, and not push it under the carpet under the guise of being secular. The problem may be more exacerbated with Islam, but is really a problem of religious faith itself. It is not true that Islam, or any religion for that matter, is a religion of peace. How can religions live together peacefully if they believe fundamentally different truths about the universe? If Christians believe that Jesus is the only savior and Muslims believe that Mohammad is the only savior, there is no way that, except for the sake of occassional practical convenience, they can live in peace together. It is time we accepted this truth, and not push it under the carpet under the guise of being secular. The problem may be more exacerbated with Islam, but is really a problem of religious faith itself.

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