Kashmir Protests In Pictures

@ Anil,

“My word is as good as yours.”
No, it isn’t. Your opinion is based on absolutely nothing…you have absolutely no experience on Kashmir, and you’ve already demonstrated that you know nothing about the region.

“Geelani does command the largest support of separatists. You aint got nothing to disprove the same.”
Geelani unambiguously supports accession to Pakistan…in the most recent polls, just 3% of Kashmiris favored that option. Other, older polls actually asked which separatist leader was most suitable to lead Kashmir…Shabbir Shah was by far the winner, followed by Yasin Malik.

“More hot air on the elections? I understand you are frustrated with the silent majority in kashmir who voted and even more with separatists for not capitalizing on what they called a “ripe situation”. Their inability to come together on a common platform and lack of a consenses document really gets to you.”
Who needs hot air when the whole world can see what kind of draconian conditions these elections are being carried out under? The pro-India parties are openly condemning what your government has done to the separatist leaders, and so called “silent majority” have made it clear to the Indian media that they’re only voting for an ad hoc government, and that their voting has no bearing on their desire to expel India from their homeland. Moreover, judging from your silence on the my point on the plebiscite, it’s pretty clear that you yourself are aware of fallacy of the point you’re trying to make.

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“I don’t need any audacity to bring up imperialistic ambitions of separatists and their dreams of “greater kashmir”. Its plain for all to see esp. for people of Jammu and Ladakh. From claiming the entire state of J&K to an enclave in the valley – quite a fall.”
How is asking that everyone in the state be given a chance to vote on the future of their homeland “imperialistic?” Imperialism is sending your army to occupy a state whose popularly elected legislative assembly voted against joining your country, and whose people made it clear that they wanted no part in your nation.

LOC, make it international border. Clinton is gone, his creation Hurriyat needs to cease. Its time Kashmir becomes part of India in real terms. Problems faced by Kashmiris are faced by every Indian.

Besides, would Kashmiris be better off in Pakistan? The epicenter of terrorism and where Mohajirs are still Mohajirs not Muslims. Take your pick.

@ Swaptions,

“Since you asked me to read I went back to my desk ….lemme read few lines for you as well”
I’ve always been amazed at how gleefully Indians recount tales of Pathan atrocities in Kashmir, while conveniently ignoring the genocide that took place in Jammu beforehand, and in many ways, precipitated the subsequent invasion from Pakistan. Why do you people always fail to mention how the Dogra army, with assistance from the Patiala State army (under the command of an Indian army general no less), and RSS volunteers from India embarked on a campaign to ethnically cleanse the Jammu region…killing an estimated 200,000 people:

“The mad orgy of Dogra violence against unarmed Muslims should put any self-respecting human being to shame. I saw armed bands of ruffians and soldiers shooting down and hacking to pieces helpless Muslim refugees heading towards Pakistan… I saw en route State officials freely distributing arms and ammunition among the Dogras… From the hotel room where I was detained in Jammu I counted as many as twenty-six villages burning one night and all through the night rattling fire of automatic weapons could be heard from the surrounding refugee camps.”
Kashmir Times

“Unlike every part of the state, Hindus and Sikhs slightly outnumbered Muslims, and within a period of about 11 weeks, starting in August, systemic savageries …practically eliminated the Muslim element in the population, amounting to 500,000 people. About 200,000 just disappeared, remaining untraceable, having been butchered of died from epidemic or exposure. The rest fled to West Punjab.”
The Statesman, Calcutta

“But this is realty Not “your army” not “my army” but any army will have, be it serbs against muslims, Tutsis against Hutus”
I’m glad to see that you consider your army no different from other armies that have faced international condemnation for crimes against humanity. The difference is that the commanding officers in Serbia and Rwanda were ultimately handed over to the International War Crimes Tribunal for trial…I take it you support India handing over CRPF, BSF, and RR commanders to the Hague as well?

“Why are you surprised then by more number of kasmiri muslims get killed in a conflict region”
The only reason I bring up comparative numbers is to counter the ridiculous Indian myth that Pandits have somehow been singled out in this conflict. Indians seem to enjoy shedding crocodile tears over 200 Hindu deaths…throwing around words like “genocide,” but then maintain a galling silence over (or actively support) tens of thousands of Muslim civilian deaths.

“And if you are agreeing 50% polling is successful election then I can’t understand why you are arguing. If majority wants separation then why not completely boycott the election and humiliate Indian Authorites, you can not give the argument that its for local issues…if you are not agreeing to the whole system what is the point of getting a screw fixed in the broken bridge, bring down the polling to less than 1% without violence.”
The voting public has made it clear, even in Indian media reports, that they are voting for an ad hoc government to address local issues, and the UN itself has made it clear to India in multiple resolutions that local elections have absolutely no impact on the right to self-determination. I agree, it would have been better if the rural population had stayed away from the polls and humiliated your government…but at a time when every separatist leader has been arrested and gagged, and urban Kashmir is rotting under curfews (this is the sixth week in a row that Friday Namaaz was not offered in Srinagar because of curfews), the organization simply wasn’t there.

“Plebiscite …actually I also agree there should be plebiscite but of whole of kashmir (including chinese occupied kashmir as well)not only of Indian side and that too after both India and Pakistan army goes back to their borders as perhaps you agree after Muslims/Pandits has been returned to their lands.”
First of all, Chinese Occupied Ladakh (both the 5,000 sq kms lost by Pakistan, and 43,000 sq kms lost by India) are uninhabited glaciers. As for the withdrawal of both armies, I agree entirely, a fair plebiscite (or election for that matter) can’t be conducted with 700,000 soldiers around. The Government of Pakistan also agreed…in fact, they agreed to all 11 demilitarization proposals put forth by the UN…it’s India that has shown absolutely no good faith in resolving this issue.

“Apologies for not mentioning the time frame I was quoting 61st round (2004-2005)of NSS which is not based on data collected for Himachal Pradesh the actual figure is 2.7% for rural based on MRP.”
Still fabricating figures I see.
Rural Poverty Rate: 4.6%
Urban: 8.9%
Total: 5.4%
http://planningcommission.nic.in/news/prmar07.pdf

Moreover, in a state where per capita income is less than 2/3 the national average, with higher unemployment rates than average, and where hundreds of mountain villages don’t have access to paved roads and safe drinking water, one has to question the veracity of such figures. Yes, effective land redistribution under Sheikh Abdullah did reduce rural poverty rates…but when these rates are being calculated based on annual expenditures, one has to wonder how much of an impact the expenditures of 700,000 soldiers are making. I’d also be curious to see how the breakdown is between the Jammu & Kashmir regions. Indians frequently throw around combined figures to whitewash the immense discrepancies between the two regions.

@ Swaptions,

“So I don’t find your justification of tribal atrocities for the dogra atrocities too appealing. My point was very clear “Too many men with guns in civilian area is not good for the society” whether those men are serbs muslims hindus jews doesn’t matter.”
I’m not trying to justify anyone’s atrocities. Frankly, it sounds like your rationalization for all the unspeakable war crimes your army has committed is that “other armies have done the same in the past.” As if Serbian atrocities in Bosnia some how make Indian atrocities in Kashmir more palatable.

“For the point of handling over to International Tribunal…well we are still dragging the Punjab Police till today for it atrocities used for bringing down the terriorists in Punjab….we do have civil society (NGO) who are fighting for Afjal Guru…”
Ah yes…more empty talk and excuses. Forget bringing your war criminals to the Hague, your countrymen and your judiciary aren’t even willing to openly condemn them. When your army shot nearly 60 peaceful, unarmed Kashmiri protesters, and openly attacked ambulances hospitals in Srinagar (all the while letting violent mobs in Jammu burn down villages and attack/kill Kashmiri truckdrivers)…there wasn’t any mass opposition in India. The few Indians who condemned the army’s excesses were immediately lambasted as traitors. When your Supreme Court ruled last year that the army was allowed to kill any Kashmiri civilian without the burden of having to produce even a shred of evidence, you & your countrymen were silent.

You people are full of empty talk of secularism and constitutional rights, but when it comes down to it, you’ve all been complacent in the massacre in Kashmir.

“So you agree to certain extent the separatist idea is not that is “sprouting out of *every* Kashmiri Heart”
The overwhelming majority of Kashmiris believe in the separatist ideal. There’s really no dearth of evidence to prove that. Organized leadership is, however, necessary to successfully carry out organized demonstrations of popular will…bandhs, boycotts, and the like don’t just happen on their own. You can’t gag the entire Valley…putting millions of people under curfew for 6 weeks, and arresting every popular leader, and then talk about how the people have freely expressed their will (all under the watchful eyes of 700,000 soldiers).

“You can not interpret the results that suits your agenda”
Isn’t that exactly what you’re doing? You want to assume that participation in local elections is a sign of acceptance of Indian imperialism, and so that’s how you’re reading it. Even the pro-India parties are crying from the rooftops that participation in elections has no bearing on Kashmir’s final settlement, and that votes are only for “bijli sarak pani”. By the way, a PDP official is being condemned by every major pro-India party in Kashmir for making a similar statement (that voter turnout is a sign of Kashmir’s acceptance of Indian rule):
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=13_12_2008&ItemID=52&cat=1

“…before polling you said boycotting will humiliate and send the message and now you say since public didn’t boycott hence its clear to you they want ad-hoc govt. only??…stay on one side dude”
Don’t lie. I personally said nothing “before polling,” and I’d appreciate it if you tried to maintain some integrity by not fabricating statements. As for my statements about people making it clear that they’re only voting for ad hoc government, that’s taken straight from reports by your media.

“Plebiscite:If the area is uninhabited or not doesn’t matter when you have a nationalist movement neither Pakistan nor India leaves the 3rd pole (Siachen) vacated because its uninhabited.Most of the islands under indian territory (1200 approx) are inhabited doesn’t mean we just give it away. Iran and UAE are fighting over 1 uninhabited island.Since you didn’t respond I’ll take you agree all the Muslims/Pandits must return to their homeland before a plebiscite is mandated.”
Exercise some common sense. If the area’s uninhabited, who’s going to vote? The Indian soldiers stationed there?

“Also definitely army presence will be affecting the poverty but they are actually replacing the tourist who has vanished rite?”
And tourist expenditures were indicative of the living conditions of the average Kashmiri?

“But again this are just numbers… safe drinking water sanitation ….I guess you need to visit a Fascist Pro-Hindu government run states like UP/MP to a 100% hindu dominated villages before you start complaining.”
Your arguments are getting nonsensical. I was simply pointing out that the Kashmir Valley has hundreds, if not thousands of mountain villages without electricity, water, and roads…and that under those circumstances, expenditure data (inflated by a 700,000 strong military presence) showing 5% poverty is suspect. What in God’s name does Bihar’s mess have to do with any of that?

“Can you also provide details of the sources that you have quoted…simply Kasmir times or statesman is not source….I quoted from a book that I mentioned earlier.”
The text from The Statesman is found in “Kashmir in Conflict” by Victoria Schofield. The text from the Kashmir times can be found quoted here:
http://www.kashmirwatch.com/showexclusives.php?subaction=showfull&id=1194433547&archive=&start_from=&ucat=15&var1news=value1news

“Since you mention about differnce in Jammu and Kashmir..let me tell you most people of Jammu says Kashmiris has been pandered too much by the govt.”
A simple look at the actual data proves otherwise

Jammu literacy (2001): 63%
Kashmir literacy (2001): 48%

According to the 2001 census, Kashmiris represent 55% of the state population, while Muslims as a whole make up 67%. Still both groups lag behind in representation at all levels of the bureaucracy.
Only 4/10 High Court judges are Muslims (all Kashmiri)
http://jkhighcourt.nic.in/judges.html

If you look at sub-judges, 72% (79/110) are Jammuites, while 56% (62/110) are Hindus and Sikhs.
http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=19_8_2008&ItemID=30&cat=1

Overall Muslim representation in the state judiciary is 48% according to the Sachar report. Kashmir is also the only state where Muslims, despite being 67% of the population, are legally barred from holding the office of governor. There’s no state in India where Muslims make up just 30% of the population, and are guaranteed the office of governor and are allowed to dominate the bureaucracy.

You tell me which population is being pampered.

koshur

if people like you want freedom from india, then why are you people taking funds from govt from india. you want max money fom govt of india, but you dont want to be part of india.

““Too many men with guns in civilian area is not good for the society” whether those men are serbs muslims hindus jews doesn’t matter.” hence we can’t end up being in the “slapping mode”…earlier comments.”
I don’t know how I can make this any simpler. It’s quite clear that you’re attempting to minimize the impact of the atrocities committed by the Indian army in Kashmir by claiming that any army in a civilian area would have done the same. It’s nothing more than a subtly repackaged version of the same old “you think Kashmir is bad, well this is what the Pakistani army did in B’desh in ‘71″ argument that your countrymen love to bring up ad nauseum.

“but I would also love to have the source/context of your last statement about Supreme Court frankly I don’t about this.”
Google the Masooda Parveen case.

In 1998, Masooda Parveen’s husband, an advocate at the High Court of Jammu & Kashmir, was taken away by soldiers of the 17 Jat Regiment, and Indian militants…3 days later, the army handed over his burnt and mutilated body. His widow filed a case against the army, asking for compensation for her husband’s death…9 years later, the case reached the Supreme Court of India. The army alleged that her husband was a militant, but failed to provide so much as a shred of evidence…not even the records from his interrogation. The Court ruled in favor of the army, stating that it was Masooda Parveen’s responsibility to prove that her husband was not a militant…and that the army had acted within its rights per the Armed Forces Special Powers Act.

“You are yet to provide source for you claims on election of turnout of 40-50%”
“Kashmir, A Disputed Legacy, 1846–1990″ by Alastair Lamb

“Simple rhetoric like the above doesn’t prove anything dude….its you belief….let it be that way….please don’t claim a majority based on your beliefs…”
No, it isn’t. There’s no dearth of polls and surveys, most of which were carried out by Indian organizations, that reflect the same:

2007: 87% of Kashmiris favor independence
http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSDEL291796._CH_.2400

2002: 9% of ethnic Kashmiris want Indian citizenship, 13% want Pakistani citizenship, remaining 78% didn’t show any preference
http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15062002/1506200229.htm

1995: 72% of ethnic Kashmiris want independence, 19% want to join Pakistan
http://www.nancho.net/fdlap/kashmir/outlookf.html

“My point of bringing up “Bihar Mess” was to show how out “Pro-Hindu Fascist goverment” reacts to Indian sufferings irrespective of religion.”
And again, I never used the term “Pro-Hindu Fascist government” so kindly refrain from putting quotation marks around it, as that implies that I did. Moreover, you’re bringing up an entirely irrelevant point (in a futile attempt to drag religious rhetoric into this). I’m entirely aware of the Indian government’s apathy towards the poor…after all, we’re discussing a country that despite all its rapid economic growth, still has significantly higher childhood malnutrition rates than impoverished Somalia and Ethiopia. My point, for the last time, was to question official 2-3% poverty rates in a state with such significant rural underdevelopment and social backwardness. Frankly, I’d react the exact same way if your government tried to claim that Bihar only had 5% poverty as well.

“You seem to stuck on the point Indian Army atrocities…”
Let’s flip the situation around. Do you support reconciliation with the terrorists responsible for organizing and orchestrating the Mumbai attacks? I sincerely doubt you or most of your countrymen do. Frankly, your army has carried out countless such attacks in Kashmir…why should we forget all of that and reconcile ourselves with the government responsible for orchestrating those massacres?

“Masooda Praveen Case: I did google as you asked …. complete denial of justice I agree….but there are NGO/Civil societies which are working to repel the ASFP act under which Supreme Court filed its verdict….”
Support from a few leftist NGO’s doesn’t change the fact that most of India could care less about (or actively supports) the fact that the Supreme Court has essentially ruled that Kashmiri civilians can be killed on whim with absolutely no legal repercussions.

“which has faced criticism but for you information this is something which does not target Kasmiri as you seem to believe …there are lot of cases of ASFP in other areas where army is stationed.”
You didn’t read closely enough. The only other area where AFSPA is in effect is in the Northeastern states, and in 1997, the Supreme Court placed nominal restrictions on the application of AFPSA in those areas, which have been followed in subsequent rulings by the Gauhati High Court. However, in Masooda Parveen’s case, the Supreme Court ruled that the army need not observe even those minimal restrictions in Kashmir.

“Again only srinagar and 4 villages where 78% says doesn’t know Total of 800+ sample size where Jammu is included hence 61% says with India. Funny how this numbers can behave…But I wonder how can mood swing so much in 12 years….78% to 12% to 87% assuming all this are true reflection of the mood?”
If you look at the breakdown of the poll, you’ll see that only the regional results have any relevance, and the state-wide results are essentially worthless due to manipulation of overall demographics. Ethnic Kashmiris make up 55% of the state population, but were only 42% of the subjects polled (360 out of 850).

In any case, the only contentious areas in the state are the Kashmir Valley and Doda (the areas dominated by ethnic Kashmiris), and in those areas, the pro-independence results have been quite consistent – 72%, 78%, 87%. Include the pro-Pakistan votes and you get 89%, 91%, and 90% who don’t want to be a part of India. Frankly, this is the only data we have when people have been asked specifically about the future status of the state, and therefore likely the best indication of popular sentiments. Participation in polls where every pro-India party is crying from the rooftops that participation in elections has no bearing on Kashmir’s final status is hardly a substitute for a plebiscite or an indication of pro-India sentiment.

“Guess what, similar rhetoric like you, was on the air by NDA for similar surveys in 2004″
I’m not aware of any survey that has shown that most ethnic Kashmiris support union with India. The 2002 survey I quoted earlier (where only 9% of Kashmiris said they wanted to remain with India) is the one most frequently quoted by official Indian government sources (because the state-wide demographic profile has been manipulated in India’s favor).

“No one claims Bihar has povery of 5%…”
I know…it was an analogy. Having lived in Kashmir, and observed firsthand the level of basic development in our rural areas, I find the quoted 2% poverty ratio as believable as if you had claimed there was only 5% poverty in Bihar.

“Well I may be the buffoon of highest order but tell me how can Indian army be in a Chinese occupied territory…as I clarified earlier…. doesn’t matter if the island/glacier/desert is uninhabited when you are talking of nationalist movement. Land in whatever form is one of the primary identity of modern nation state.”
Excuse my typo, I meant to say Chinese soldiers. In any case, how does one go about conducting a plebiscite in an uninhabited area? Who votes?

As for your point about nationalist movements and land, at the end of the day, this is a Kashmiri nationalist movement. Ethnic Kashmiris traditionally live only in the Valley and in Doda district, and have little to do culturally, linguistically, or historically with the other areas of the Dogra state. Frankly, our nationalist identity is unrelated to Aksai Chin, or Pakistani “Kashmir” for that matter.

@ Swaptions,

“Please don’t……continue with violence/protest lets continue with slapping each other till one of us drops dead then our next generation will continue…..You might differ but think for a moment …. “eye for an eye leaves the world blind”
Yes, I’m sure you’d be much happier if the people of Kashmir just sit back and let India keep walking all over us, the way it has been for the past 61 years. Perhaps your freedom fighters should have taken your advice too, and just allowed the British to continue oppressing them too.

“exactly! so before that happens please don’t quote surveys with miniscule population sample size…”
Like I said, in the absence of a plebiscite, those are the only essentially the only objective data we have. It makes far more sense to draw conclusions from that data than to assume that voter turnout in local elections means India has overwhelming popular support (which you have been claiming in several posts).

“are you quoting the same sources?”
Yes. The references are all there.

“I still can’t own a piece of land in J&K ….unlike Chinese in Tibet or Pakis in POK”
I don’t know about Chinese law in Aksai Chin…so I’d be curious to know what your source is. Again, the area is completely uninhabited, so I’d like to know who exactly you claim is buying land out on those glaciers. As for the Pakistani administered areas, I know that non-state subjects are legally prohibited from purchasing land. Ignorant Indians claim that the area has been overrun by Punjabis, not realizing that the areas that make up Azad Kashmir have historically been populated by Punjabi-speaking people, and have never been home to ethnic Kashmiris (other than those who have fled there since 1947).

“I really don’t see where is you disagreement you can have many anecdotal evidence against it but remember anecdotal evidences are are just that ……anecdotal.”
You can keep insisting till you’re blue in the face, I refuse to believe that Kashmir has a lower poverty ratio than the United States (which is what India claims).

“This is where you lose me dude…..how come your intentions are so Aligned with Pakis and chinese?

This is where I start doubting your real intentions and inspite of the fact that you sound so emotional I can’t stop the feeling that its not sacrosanct Nationalist Movement but lot of other people involved with lot of propaganda and misinformation to speak about. Similar argument was made for sikh community when none of the Punjab in pakistan was ever claimed by extremist. They also had history I mean what you say like independent kashmir predates India Pakistan partition….though off-topic,,,, at the initial plan proposed by British there was a plan for third country….it was was not Kashmir….it was undivided Bengal…….so predation…history stays on the shelf.”

Just because ignorant & misinformed Indians refer to the entire Dogra princely state as “Kashmir” doesn’t make it so (its amusing to see people arguing so passionately for an area they know so little about).

Along with “Kashmir” (which roughly consists of the Valley and Doda district) the Dogra state was made up of 3 other culturally distinct areas – Gilgit/Baltistan, Ladakh, and Jammu. Ethnic Kashmiris live only in “Kashmir” and culturally have never had much in common with Jammu and Ladakh (so your comparison to East and West Punjab is irrelevant). The only reason Kashmir is associated with the rest of the Dogra state is because it was sold to the Dogras in 1846 under the terms of the Treaty of Amritsar…otherwise there is no real historical connection between the regions…which is why it makes little sense to talk of “Kashmiri nationalism” in what is essentially Ladakhi territory. In fact, as I’ve already mentioned, the Kashmiri independence movement began in 1931 in an effort to expel the Dogras from Kashmir…essentially an effort to liberate “Kashmir” from “Jammu.”

I don’t know whether its poor grammar or poverty of content, but most of that post makes absolutely no sense.