Any religion that says its writings are the word of god is fundamentally flawed. This so called word of god has to be modified with the on going evolution of knowledge. There are numerous examples. The Christian church has to continually back peddle on statements in the Bible that it stated as fact (word of god) and often killed for (people burned at the stake) ‘The world is flat’, ‘Earth is the centre of the universe’ etc etc etc.

Realising this, the Christian faith has ironically become essentially an invitation for most of the western people to be (Atheist). Interestingly only America has large segments of the population which are blind faith followers and countries where the church is new and/or still holds political sway such as some Pacific Islands (i.e. Samoa, Tonga) and Philippines etc.

Most of Western Europe, Australia and New Zealand and many more such countries have no silly religious rhetoric holding them back. Religion only has a symbolic presence here.

The church has taken a backseat in all enlightened societies. They enjoy the humour they derive from the Bible rather than follow it blindly. Jesus is often a cartoon character in many serials see: “South Park” or “Family Guy”. Most western stand up comics (see: Ricky Gervais – “Animals”) benefit from the freedom to vilify the false logic in what their ancestors blindly followed. I have hundreds of such examples as I enjoy a good laugh at the expense of illogical human fallacy.

Once people recognise that all that is written in the hand of man cannot be followed blindly. All statements have to be filtered by the rational mind. No book is the word of god. These same books contain universal wisdom in some aspects; the rest is “BS”.

Swami Vivekananda: “To believe blindly is to degenerate the human soul. Be an atheist if you want, but do not believe in anything unquestioningly.”

“All who have actually attained any real religious experience never wrangle over the form in which the different religions are expressed. They know that the soul of all religions is the same and so they have no quarrel with anybody just because he or she does not speak in the same tongue.”

“True religion is not talk, or doctrines, or theories, nor is it sectarianism. It is the relation between soul and God. Religion does not consist in erecting temples, or building churches, or attending public worship. It is not to be found in books, or in words, or in lectures, or in organizations. Religion consists in realization. We must realize God, feel God, see God, talk to God. That is religion.”

“No man is born to any religion; he has a religion in his own soul.”

I would also finally like to add that I feel that I have to use the Christian faith as examples in the above, as this way I will not receive a backlash (Fatwa) issued against me. I would prefer to be silent and safe then beat a dead horse. As people brainwashed by illogical religious doctrine cannot be awakened. Its really sad that India the land that gave birth to such amazing Philosophy is still tied down by religion.

Contrast that with the Islamic state of Mecca, when the Holy Prophet (SAWA) gained victory and declared a general amnesty.

However, in today’s context, it is difficult to envisage a perfect Islamic state.

Please do not pretend that being a dhimmi or “protected” minority is anything but discrimination. Protected is not equal and never was. Why do they have to be protected? from whom?

Also spare us the talk about the example of the Caliph or Khalifah. If you read history this was a time of war and conquest of non-Muslims. It was a time of violence – Muslim killing non-Muslims and also each other. The Caliphs grew wealthy through the loot and conquest of others. It was also during this time that dissention broke out between Muslims, each accuring the other of not being pure and faithful and true Muslims. Blood flowed. Nothing has changed.

The fact that a site called “Indian Muslims” can ignore the obvious and that people will advocate a “Muslim state” and sharia shows how bad things are in the Ummah. If Muslim Indians want to see a Muslim state in action, just look West. Is this that they want? Oh yes, the Pakis are not ‘real’ Muslims or they are not doing it right like ‘pure’ Muslims will when they have their won state. I won’t hold my breath.

At least a few Muslims here have some sense and understand that an “islamic state” means discrimination against non-Muslims.

Kactuz

Comment Edited

I fully agree with you. The way our constitution is applied and the way the judicial system operates is yet to be matched by any Muslim country.

To enforce Islamic rule too, any Muslim country has to see to it that there is an abundance of aalims and mujtahids that can give a proper opinion. The law which is finally firmed up must be endorsed by a marjae taqlid.

Learning makes a lot of difference. That is why the rulings of even an individual like Ayatollah Seestani are more scholarly than entire Islamic legal systems operating in many countries.

Anyways what I saw in Kashmir is enough for me to feel that the very mentality that yearns for an islamic state is dangerous because seldom is there a place in it for so called others. And therefore in an Indian context when someone even thinks of the same I find it outrageous. India is a Hindu country and that is guaranteeing its secular structure. Its the only place left for them and if they dont protect it then noone is going to protect them and not the secular politicians. Allthough a reactionary force Hindu Fundamentalism will die down if the very nature of India is not attempted to be changed. The attempt has been on for 1000’s of years yet it failed and its total success will never be there. But in the process India has been maimed, tortured, partitioned, terrorised, humilated and what not.

All I hear even after the kashmiri hindus are languishing in tents in cold weather, killed, tortured, driven away is that they were only 1% and how much were they enjoying. They have been compensated, this that, blatant lies. Leave empathise(No Sympathies Please) there is a whole lot of space for lies.The state except in few years of inception started showing inclination towards an Islamic state. If I remember right even in early 80’s people started showing all secessionist tendencies. Yet the goverment losing its goodwill was not encouraging the moderate kashmiris. They were playing with Jamiat and Farooq. Appeasing those very feelings which were igniting seperatism, Islamic state. Same is being done in India now in other parts by our very intelligent politicians. Albeit Muslims being in a minority find themselves discriminated here.

To be fair on them as well I find they are scapegoats. They cant escape that circle. They are ignited to be at logger heads and then they find themselves against a system that wants to protect the Secular nature of India . Friction is the reason they feel discriminated. However if someone wants an Islamic state I will maintain India is not the place. Please choose some other place. And this is not for attacking them but to mitigate the friction and for peace.

I agree with you completely. The way Islam has been taken up in the West and the way it is being followed in the subcontinent are two different things.

Also, in the days of the Holy Prophet (SAWA), there was no intolerance and segregation of the sexes.

Keep writing in. I find something very positive in your writing.

If you are a software engineer in UK or US you wont go back to India just because you had a hate incident.

We all need to discuss rationally what is wrong and what is right. This is the mark of a sane society.

The point I began was the welfare of minorities in Islamic state. The generally held belief is:-

”An Islamic state not only protects the fundamental rights of all the individual citizens irrespective of personal faith but it also gives cultural and religious autonomy to different communities at a level yet to be recognized in any democratic State.”

But as I said and there are number of examples that nothing of this sort could be guaranteed or achieved. So definitely I do not blame Islamic laws. But if in the history of Islam we failed to protect minorities in any state then the very same reasons existed everywhere. If you are a so called ”DEFENDER” of Islam you will either blame the links, reports or media to be unfair and biased or to remain quiet in name of Islam getting benefitted. But if the truth needs to prevail then we failed in cases to protect Muslim minorities itself what to say of Non Muslim ones. Islam is the final word for me but we must respect that its not for others. They need to be free to worship or analyse their scriptures as they want.

You referred Statistics. Let me take a case from Saudi Arabia. According to the Statistical Yearbook published by the Ministry of Finance and National Economy there the most common crimes in 1988 were theft (7,553 cases), the production, sale, and consumption of alcohol (5,085 cases), altercations and quarreling (3,651 cases), and moral offenses (2,576 cases). There were many other cases and there were many unreported cases as well. Few of them got capital punishment so as to remind others that such laws exist and the society needs to be safe. Smart isnt it?

You referred Rape. Let me take the example of why most rape cases go unreported in an Islamic state. The official Islamic law is death to a rapist I agree. But why this law is difficult to be implemented. Zina or Illegal intercourse requires 4 Muslim mail witnesses to testify that the rape has happened. This is the simplest scenario. I am not going into cases involving Muslims and Non Muslims. The official stand in Islam is that the requirement for zina is to protect women from wrong charges. However its actual implementation has become practically impossible in many islamic countries including Pakistan because:-

”Muslim scholars derived some ethical principles from the Quran, hadith and sunnah related to zina. First of all, it is preferable for a person who witnesses an act of zina not to report it, and instead to cover the shortcoming of others while at the same time advising them to change their behavior. This principle is in harmony with the hadith that states whoever covers the shortcoming of a Muslim, God will cover his shortcomings here and in the thereafter.”

I will here not even go into a situation where a women fails to prove the charges. So we see that whatever actually Islam wants is not possible because either we find interpretations that suit a person of the time or to hide a wrong doing.

You referred Sexual Morality, Family values, Sexual Diseases. Without going into sexual morality of many of the Sheikhs, Harems and concubines which I am sure for a priveledged few I find that the family values in most Arabic states are at an abysmal low. Definitely in the sub continent we do have more focus on the same. I find family values much stronger among south asian families.

You referred Racism. If you are referring Saudi Arabia or even South Asia let me without mincing words put straight out that racism is yet to get out of anyones mentality. Definitely its nothing to do with Islam. This is all cultural I guess. You have fair colour and you have not. Just get caught maybe in a traffic charge in Saudi. If you are an arab you will sail easily through, if you are a british/american maybe a warning and if you are a Indian/Pakistani then you might be in trouble. Least to say that in many areas as far as dhahran or abu dhabi there are many hot spots and clubs to welcome the american guests. If you pick up fight and get hurt with an Arab in an arabic state then which law will save you. Morality Huh?

I am sorry I will not be able to go into specifics of India related cases but its positive to know that Islamic personal laws are there. I believe the same attempt is being done in UK as well. The most recent rise of an Islamic state was in afghanistan. To be fair on them they did start out initially well. To relieve people from the warlords and drug dealers the state did destroy poppy fields, put in laws for betterment of the society. But from then on any sort of interpretation was a fair interpretation. Women and minorities were treated as animals. Historical structures were decimated. Attack against far flung western countries were planned all in name of Islam. The zenith of Islamic laws was the moral police out checking beards of males with inch tapes. I feel that it was a return of a system to a tribal state.

I prefer religion not to be meddled in anything. And I mean any religion. Lack of religion can be shown in moral or human aspects but what if the religious interpretation is used for the same downfall. Then there is no saving.

Those who are repulsive of the so called “Islamic rule” should explain what they exactly fear about it.

Karoly, if you do not realize how absurd your statement is, then no amount of explanation is going to help you see why (though I wouldn’t use the word “repulsive”). If you are so desirous of living under “Islamic rule” please move to Saudi Arabia. You’ll be happy, and we’ll be happy too. But it seems to me that what you really desire is for *others* to live under Islamic rule because you think it’s wonderful.

I’ll let Asghar Ali Engineer or Kaleem Kawaja answer your queries in detail (in a language that you can understand) in a future post of theirs.