India-Pakistan Twenty 20 world cup final would be a dream come true for millions on this globe. And nothing could have surpassed the tense final moments of the final match. When Misbah tossed the ball of Joginder Sharma, many heart stopped beating. The catch by Sreesaanth put the heart beat back for Indians and perhaps took away few beats for Pakistanis. It was the most perfect finish we could have hoped for.
Shoaib Malik after the match remarked, or rather apologized, to the entire Muslims for losing! I found it extremely disturbing, to say the least. How justified is to associate the whole Muslim world with the cricket team of Pakistan? As a matter of fact this generalization is something very common among Pakistanis. They claimed to have acquired Nuclear weapon to protect the Muslim world when the first testing took place immediately after India tested its nuke. The basis being the only Muslim country to have acquired nuclear capability. The same logic was extended to cricket, Pakistan being the strongest among Muslim countries.
I found it so embarrassing when Malik mentioned this to Ravi Shastri as I was watching the match with my office colleagues. Murmurs immediately buzzed the extremely charged environment. People were critical how Malik was dragging the entire Muslim world into this. He gave a statement before the match that his team will definitely win as it is Ramdaan and his team members ‘jee jaan eek kar denge‘. Its a common perception that India can’t defeat Pakistan on Fridays as its an auspicious day for Muslims. Whenever a friend of mine used to mention this, I used to present my counter-argument based on the fact that India has more Muslims than Pakistan so why not India? I never got a reply back.Even though this statement might be considered frivolous in Pakistan and across the Muslim countries, well in case cricket does make any sense to any of them, it has serious repercussions in a country like India where Muslims are already seen with suspicion. Even though none of my colleagues commented about this statement but a doubt would definitely have burgeoned regarding my loyalties. A natural question would be, “who do you support?”Irfan Pathan should have objected to this as he was interviewed immediately after him. His clarification would have at least made Malik realise that his team was just representing Pakistan and why the hell is religion being brought into cricket?
I don’t want to be termed as a sadist who keeps looking for trifle things on an evening when India won the world cup and thus I don’t want this to be a harangue against the incident.
Off topic: Urdu
Second Gaurav. I am a pucca Hindu, have never studied and dont really know Urdu but for the mix spoken in Indian Hindi, guess or google much of the meaning, but am in love with Urdu. Secular sites poetry/song (not lengthy discourses on Islam), in Urdu will be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Jai
@Adnan:
“Asad Mian, don’t teach me lesson of democracy,”
Why not? You come on this forum and start talking like an ignorant. So what’s wrong in getting some education?
“..if Such democratic state can’t secure Muslims from riots like Gujrat then what’s the purpose of such democracy?”
So, what’s your suggestion? Go for dictatorship and it will turn India into a heaven of peace, just like Pakistan?
“1)Indians should mind their own business.
2)â€?Those who live in glasshouse don’t throw stones on othersâ€?. When your own hands are dirty in mishandling minorities(Muslims,Dalits etc) then it doesn’t make sense to criticize others. Specially Indian Muslims who are being screwed up more by their own Indian fellows than a Pakistani.”
Well said.
Now turn it back towards yourself and stop poking your fingers in the issues of Indian muslims. If you or your players want to make any claims on behalf of muslim ummah, please restrict it to yourself. As the title of this thread very clearly says “hame aapka jee jaan nahin chaahiye”. How much more explicitly you want it to hear before it goes inside your brain?
To Jai
Perhaps Aligarians.com maintained by Mohib could be of interest to you
Hi Adnan,
Google is not rocket science but it is a search science also developed by an Indian and it is well and highly acclaimed……my source of articles were from wikipedia…I don’t want you to get angry over anything……….the only purpose of yours was that some Indian Muslim criticises India and accept what you say is truth……….Will you curse your mother if she slaps you? The only point is that even the richest man and countries on earth have some problems……….why can’t India have some? If brothers fight then why can’t there be problems between 2 communities…….If I criticise India based on some pakistani news will that prove me sensible?
You know in India if there is any tension between 2 communities it is never published as one community attacked other……… It only gets published as there was a fight between some people of 2 communities without naming anyone…….Just think how insecure the hindus in your country will be feeling with that bold news published as Hindus attacked Muslims….And that is also not the truth…You believe it because it is published in your media…please go to BBC or even to Al Jazeera….there will not be any such news….Also the impact on you….you have been boiling from the last one week thinking that this has happened and also angry because the muslims in india are not reacting…..now also understand who has been making sissy rants(Silly rants rather) if you even come closer to this truth…..if your child and my child throw stone on each other then it does not makes me, you, my country or your country villains…….
And i certainly appreciate you having reasoned that people should not poke into each other’s affair…I hope you live by this reasoning…Also finally Adnan Saab, after sikhs, Christians, Muslims you also realised that Dalits(Hindus) are also discriminated in India…is anyone else left and if everyone is discriminating against everyone then I guess it must have neutralised…..but just to give you some information which clickety might not have published Mayawati is a Dalit lady who has recently won the UP elections in India and is now emerging as a major political force in India……Next story please…..Yawn(Some good stories this time
)
Regards,
Manoj George
Dear Adnan,
You are just trying to trap indian muslims into saying what u want them to say. just like hindu fanatics. its so fascinating and a great learning for us here to see that there is no difference between a hindu rightwinger and a muslim rightwinger when it comes to indian muslims
well i have one thing to say – power to indian muslims :p
i like ur dismissal of direct action, bahawalpur riots etc etc as simply incredible. just like the incredible civilization of harappa
just inventions of untrustworthy hindu minds 
All of the indians muslims and christians mentioned here that there is no discrimination in India against minorities.
Can someone explain me:
1. Why a religious muslims who offers prayers and has a beard when tries to rent a house in Mumbai, gets a no no just because he is a muslim ?
2. Why the young muslim women who commute on the Mumbai railways who wear Hijab or Burqa , are being shouted with names and hatred as if they are the suicide bombers ?
3. Beard and Burqa is not a an uncommon sight for the non-muslims in india who lived there for centuries.
The facts stated not made up facts but are very real from the reliable resources.
Comparing Quaid with Modi is really disrespectful for the great leader who changed the course of history. This is the attitude that the indians had.
You guys are blaming the great muslim leader for inciting the riots when you never say a word against the hindus who actually killed the
muslims in Calcutta. Just because of the fact that you cannot blame hindu leaders since you are living with them.
If you want to ask what happened in the partition, ask the educated indian muslims who were students at that time in 1940s when they were not given jobs and were told to go home and look for the jobs in their Pakistan.
Places as remote as Sitapur in UP , Urdu classes were stopped because the hindu students did not want to study just because they didn’t want to go to Pakistan as they thought that Urdu is muslim.
I can quote a verse here on this situation.
“Waqt kay Mathay ki Shikan yaad rahay gee
Woh Bay Rukhi -e- Yaraan-e- Watan yaad rahay gee ”
Also regarding the minorities are concerned we can also give a similar example as you guys quote:
Rana Bhagwandas has remained Chief Justice of Pakistan with an impeccable record.
Late AR Cornelius was a former CJP in the 1960s-1970s.
Mr.Azad Marshall, a christian from Sahiwal Pujab, has become the Bishop of Iran and the Gulf which is really an honour.
Even as of today, I had a chance to go out in Sindh and Balochistan especially, there are a number of places where the minorities have excelled and they are at very prominent position in the Civil Administrations. They are in a considerable number in Univerisites , Healthcare Organizations. Even in the Telecommunications Departments a number of powerful posts in Sindh and Balochistan are given to Hindus due to their excellence. Be it a Commissioners, District Magistrate, A Divisional Engineer of Pakistan Telecommunications, Director, District Health Officer.
One of the shining example is of Mr.Raja Tridev Rai, who has been given the lifelong minister status, a hindu raja from Chittagong who is a staunch Pakistani even today and lives in Islamabad. All of the Pakistani leaders have given him his due status a minister.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Tridev_Roy
Can someone provide some similar examples of Indian Muslims who are these level in large numbers besides the usual mentioning of A.Kalam.
Shahran:
1. Nobody here claims that India is a perfect land of milk and honey. But any comparisons of India and Pakistan on things like legal rights of minorities or their defacto status is really meaningless. It is foolish to compare a country that threw out virtually all its minorities (and note that before partition, the area that is now Pakistan had a greater proportion of minorities than the area that is now India), constitutionally barred them from seeking certain positions of office and continues to do so, and where the remaining minority population is virtually invisible, to one where there might be problems, but still minorities are a significant and vocal part of the population and are at least not constitutionally discriminated against as part of state policy. The difference is not even worth commenting about. As somebody pointed out, being better than Pakistan, even if true, is no badge of honor. We need to aspire to much higher levels.
2. The comparison of Modi to Jinnah may seem sacrilegious to you, but the objective facts show both of them to be similar. Both are irreligious in their personal lives, but both have used religion to incite and arouse ordinary people to hatred and to do horrendous deeds and both have misused religious feelings for political purposes. And in both cases, it is hard to assign personal culpability. The Gujarat riots were a classic replication of the Direct Action Day riots. In both cases, a Government in power, the Muslim League in Bengal and BJP in Gujarat, incited and aided the rioters. In both cases, lumpen elements were let loose on hapless citizens. In both cases, police was misused and at the least prevented from performing its duty. The ML govt. in Calcutta for instance, gave a day off to all policemen on the day of the riots, despite clear warnings of violence in advance. Suhrawardy, one of Jinnah’s closest confidants, himself manned the police control room and prevented British and other duty-minded Indian officials from taking action to stop the violence. Jinnah himself was asked about the impending violence during a press conference before Direct Action Day and merely shrugged his shoulders. People here are critical of Modi. I personally think he should pay for his crimes and be punished. Would you be objective and say the same about Jinnah? I doubt it.
3. Regarding representation of Muslims in government jobs in India, it is true that they are under-represented. But it is a more complex issue than discrimination. There may be discrimination in individual cases, but on the whole under-representation is more a result of lack of education. If discrimination were the primary reason, it would be hard to explain the fact that even Hindus are under-represented. Minorities like Sikhs, Christians, Parsis and Jains are on the other hand over-represented in many important sections of the Government and economy. Even the Sachar Committee report, that confirms this under-representation, says that of those Muslims who did apply for the civil services, an equal proportion of them got in as for other communities. However, the problem is that not enough of them apply. In states like Kerala, where educational attainment of Muslims is comparable to that of other communities, their representation is also much better.
4. Once again, comparing representation of minorities in India to that in Pakistan is laughable. After all, India till about 2 months ago had a Muslim President, a Sikh Prime Minister, a Catholic as the head of the governing coalition (and the most powerful politician in the country) and a Sikh Army Chief. How many countries around the world have we seen that have such a situation? Even in the developed world? And this is not just at the topmost levels. There are today multiple chief ministers of states from minority communities, more than one state with Muslim police chiefs (and several others with other minorities), several cities with Muslims (and other minorities) as police chiefs, the chief of the intelligence agency is a Christian. The list can keep going on. It would be foolish to even start thinking of Pakistan as a valid comparison.
5. BTW, there is a case like that of Raja Tridev Roy in India too. The Prince of Arcot has the privileges of a cabinet minister (and so will his successors). He is the only former prince to retain such a privilege after the abolition of privy purses in the late 1960s.
6. I am not saying all this for point scoring. In fact, even on this thread, I was one of the first to say that Shoaib Malik might have made a honest mistake and we should let it pass. I also don’t think that Pakistan is evil while we are saints. There is good and bad on both sides. But I am not one to let ignorance and prejudice pass by without at least a comment.
P.S. I wish to correct an inadvertent error in my previous post. The number of casualties in the Calcutta riots was not more than the number killed in all riots after independence. I meant to say that more people were killed in Calcutta in a day than all the people killed in Gujarat and that the numbers killed in all the riots related to Direct Action Day and leading up to partition was more than the total number killed in all riots in 60 years since independence. Somehow both statements got mixed up. My apologies about that.
Shahran,
First of all if you see my messages I never denied that India is imprefect. Why can’t we have problems but the only issue we always have is that why do you want Indians to criticise and hate India and accept pakistan as a model state. We can not. The very reason I gave you the links in the first place was that I will not listen false stories about India from a pakistani when I can’t listen them from the pope itself. In India at least there are significant Hindus. Muslims , Christians and when we fight we can justify that it is because of religious boundaries we are fighting. But why are you breaking each other’s head there in Pakistan. And you want us to accept this as a role model show.
You are again accusing certain incidents in India which we also accept should not be there. Please see my earlier message. The very people who have poisoned certain minds in Mumbai also have poisoned people’s mind against Hindus from Bihar and UP and south and what not and this is basically the right wing. And you know India has come a full U turn after kashmir. It has never been the same as it was before that. We invite everyone from the world to come and see us and then realise that we have invited problems. You will never accept that Kashmir was completely peaceful till 1989 and before that in 3 wars with pakistan the people there had never supported pakistan. The opening of borders in Pok had a deep impact there. When you will always feel that India and Indians are bad then even when you come to India will you ever feel the goodness here. You will still go about giving the same reasons to everyone.
But since you asked even though I told you that barring the post of prime minister every single position has been at some point been occupied by a Muslim in India here are some references.
Air Chief Marshal In India, Idris Hasan:-
http://rajbhavan.maharashtra.gov.in/previous/latifbiodata.htm
Lieutenant General and Vice Chancellor In India Mohammed Zaki:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Ahmed_Zaki
Chief Justice Of Supreme Court A. M Ahmadi
http://www.supremecourtofindia.nic.in/judges/bio/amahmadi.htm
Third President Of India Zakir Hussain:-
http://rrtd.nic.in/zakirhussain.html
Fifth President Of India Fakhruddin Ahmed:-
http://rrtd.nic.in/fakhruddinaliahmed.htm
If You want more links I can give you at least 25 more that to my knowledge but just to give you an opinion we have had many captains of many sports team as Muslims.Since you must be a cricket lover you must be knowing at least in cricket.
We have had many Muslim Chief Ministers in past and our current vice president Is also a Muslim. There are Muslim universities such as AMU, Jamia and Hamdard in India. We have theworld’s biggest madarsa in Deband In India. There are many sufi saints where Hindus also pay their tribute.
And to just set a record straight these Muslims have achieved all these positions through their own grit and determination and none of this has been any benevolence of any kind. But can you imagine an army and secret service chief in Pakistan as Hindu.
I am not against pakistan but I don’t want false stories propagated against India. Why can’t you realise that yes India has many great aspects also. Why do you have to live in stories each time. I am ready to extend any miles but from past experience I just want that you develop your own country and let India develop also.
Regards,
Manoj George
Everybody pls cool down. There is lots of gray scale on both sides of the picture.
Why cant you [Indian/Pakistani] realize that [Pakistan/India] has many great aspects also?
Let ppl recognize what they want to and let it go at that. Lets not look for such certifications.
—————–
Shahran,
Much of this blog is devoted to the legitimate grievances of IMs with the flawed but developing system we have. You are welcome to believe whatever you want to, but this one
“Just because of the fact that you cannot blame hindu leaders since you are living with them.”
is especially troubling. Perhaps holding on to this belief helps you in some way, I am happy if it makes you happy. Go well brother.
Take care,
Jai
————–
Manoj,
Recently one Sikh has joined Pak Army in officer rank. I also remember Barkha interviewing a Pak Hindu on the bus to Lahore, he said he is very khush in Pak and asked us Indians to stop hyping up their problems.
If you entertain the sneaking suspicion that he is saying that for survival in Pak, you probably know exactly what Shahran feels from his side. What that Hindu said could be very true. It is better that we proceed under the assumption that its quite correct.
regards,
Jai
————-
Moderator,
I do not wish to restrain freedom of speech, but please consider stepping in if this gets into a rediff-style slang contest. My final comment.
Thank you,
Jai
@Shahran
Pakistan is the best country ever. A harbinger of peace to all mankind. It will soon become word leader in thought and action and soon we wil see people all over world falling hear or heal to get visa for pakistan. It is true and only land of god and justice. Its past glorious histroy is a spectacle to behold and how much we envy you who dwell in there…Ameen
Hi Jai,
Well I guess Indian Muslims can not be compared to rediff. The debates here have been very logical. I respect the patriotism of Shahran and Adnan as well. I can never talk to anyone who will talk ill about his people or nation. Because then he can talk ill about anyone.
I do wish that India and Pakistan soon realise that how much damage they have done to each other because of Kashmir. Kashmir should be made a free area like singapore beloging to both India and Pakistan and let it be part of both the countries.
Ahhhhh I Wish too much.
Regards,
Manoj George
Shahran, regarding your comment on burqa, does this ring a bell?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6271894.stm
When you have Maulana Abdul Aziz trying to escape wearing a burqa, it’s human nature to treat others wearing burqa with suspicion, given that there have been bomb blasts on the train. Which is not to say that people are justified in teasing or taunting women who are wearing burqa, but incidents don’t happen in a vacuum.
@Amit,
You only know what you had seen on the TV regarding Maulana Abdul Aziz. I am not sure if you know the inside story here. There is a lot of secret discussions that were going on that led him to go out in Burqa. He was assured that if he comes out he will not be held but ofcourse this is all part of the Bluff that the Government plays with the people like him.
but i was under the impression that this maulana and his brother had said they would fight till death, and no serrender, i guess that was only for their followers not them self.
Author: Shahran
Comment:
@Amit,
You only know what you had seen on the TV regarding Maulana Abdul Aziz. I am not
sure if you know the inside story here. There is a lot of secret discussions
that were going on that led him to go out in Burqa. He was assured that if he
comes out he will not be held but ofcourse this is all part of the Bluff that
the Government plays with the people like him.
Shahran, you could be correct that there were games being played by both sides, but the fact of the matter is that he used a burqa (worn by women) to escape and was caught. When he put on the burqa, that was his choice – no one forced him to wear it. Here’s a recent news item along the same lines: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C10%5C02%5Cstory_2-10-2007_pg1_6
My point is that when incidents like these happen (use of burqa by men to deceive authorities, or to escape capture, or to blow up), people are bound to be suspicious of burqa wearing women. Maybe those male terrorists, before they put on a burqa, should think about how their actions are going to affect their fellow Muslim sisters’ lives who are innocent.
You can justify/rationalize the actions of Maulana or terrorists any way you want, but that is beside the point that I mentioned.
They said that they will fight till the end but then hWell the Maulana’s brother was fighting and he fought till he got injured in the battle with the Security forces after his mother got killed in the operation.
Check out the drama that unfolded on the Pakistan Media screens:
There is more behind the scenes than what we saw on our TV
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UAq7Z42N74g
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zlQaI-ivnsg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=AtwWa_dkQBs
hi
his brother may have been injured fighting, wonder how come he did not die, as 100s of other students and fighter died,
pls accept the fact they were just bluffing, and did not have the guts to die, for them death is ok as long as it of othere,
in india we had another terrorist like them Birindanwale in golden temple punjab, i am happy he was killed, but atleast he died fighting as well as all his supporters,
but in lala masjid they were claiming they will never surrender, they will die fighting, they will introduce islamic law in pakistn ect ect, how come then they were ready to make a deal with Mushraf?
remm mpst mullas dont have the guts to die, because they do not lead upfront, they are more of the inciting type, as long as they are safe, if in danger they will keep quite,
eg: Iraq when Sadam was there one never heard of a single mulla there, once he was thrown out not there seem to be so many religious leader, all fighting for power,
remmember the basic rule of development, any country which wants to develop it has to keep religion seperate from the state(politics)
europe developed when the seperated rekigion from sate, before that the pope use to interfere in all political matter
this applies to india too, we have to fight very hard to keep religion away from politic, many of our problems in india are because to religion
so if u want pak to develop keep this so called mullas away from politis, they should only take care of the soul not the country
ciio
Irfan is more worried about his career and making money and appearing on ads rather than religion. money is more of a powerful attractant than religion.
Vishnu well what about Sachin, Saurav and Dravid who also do the same. Irfan has infact proved himself a class apart from other players and definitely is a role model for Indian Muslims as well. Also, why religion. A sensible thing to say can be that players are more worried about money rather than playing for nation. Surprisingly people who care most about religion in todays world are the ones who spread the most hate.
One thing you all guys must remember that Shaob Malik is not even inter pass and obviously his English is not good