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The events at Glasgow and London was undoubtably horrific.
People are dying in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur and Sudan at a daily basis. That is even more horrific.
It is understandable that in UK Glasgow event was headline.
It is not clear to me why a failed terrorist attempt in the UK, in which nobody is hurt, should make headlines here.
If it does, then it is not clear to me again why daily death in Iraq does not make front page here. At Glasgow, nobody was injured, let alone being killed. Have we gotten used to their death? Or is it that in our mindset, in our culture we are still slaves of the ‘white master’. And when the white master is threatened, we shudder with fear!
Okay, there is another angle to it. One Indian was driving the vehicle involved. A few Indians are being investigated.
What is the big deal? There are many many Indian criminals in various countries. Many Indians get jailed for violence, killings and other crimes in India and abroad. Why are we singling out these two individuals?
How are we so sure?Â
The investigation is not over yet. Nothing has been presented to any court of law. Yet, the media has already passed their judgement- ‘guilty’. We have aquisced. After all, it comes from our ‘white masters’!
What the hell? Have we lost our minds?
The importance that we give to these terrorists, make their mission successful. They want attention. If we leave them alone, they lose their cause. We should treat them as criminals, and just that.
And then, the old oxymoron- ‘Islamic terrorist’ has cropped up once again. As if Islam by default means ‘go and kill’. If it did, there will not be so many Christians in Saudi Arabia whose ancestors can be traced back to the days of the Prophet (S). They would either have been forcibly converted or killed.
Spanish ‘Condulencia‘, anyone?
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Mirza Faisal:
As long as there is civil discussion, and honest exchange of ideas, I won’t be disappointed.
I think the discussion is going round and round in circles, and we all seem to be saying “Yes, but …”
What I found refreshing about Jeff Jacoby’s piece is that he is criticizing the politically correct attitude that creeps up whenever there is a debate, and that has been my personal experience too. I don’t agree with all his ideas and views, and I stated that upfront, but that doesn’t mean I have to disagree with what he has to say regarding political correctness if that is correct.
I’ve written this before in my messages (and also on Manas’s blog), and I’ll say this again that Western foreign policies are also responsible, as are the corrupt Muslim rulers. I can call them Muslims, right? Or, are they not Muslims because they are corrupt and cruel?
The way I see it, to solve problems in a country where there are different opinions, religions, cultures etc., I like the secular democracy framework the best as it is fair and gives everyone a voice. And the way to solve our differences and injustices is not through violence. It’s not a perfect system, but it’s the best system we have for now and we can keep trying to improve it.
If you disagree with this premise, then I think our discussion comes to a standstill, because we both have different and incompatible views on how to solve problems in a human society/country.
If you agree that secular democratic institutions are indeed the way to go, then we can continue the conversation.
Amit,
I just now read this article by Pratap Bhanu Mehta in The Indian Express and he has sort of hit it right on the analysis.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/204666.html
He raises three points, two of which are the same as of what I was trying to explain. The third one perhaps takes it to the point you are raising. Its food for some thought for me on the third angle.
And I did not mean to sound ‘Yes, but…’(to rationalize it) instead I meant to sound ‘Yes, and how to solve it’.
And yes, those dictators, corrupt or otherwise, are definitely Muslims if they say so
Amit
I said there can not be ‘Islamic Terrorist’ but they may be called ‘Muslim Terrorists’. I hope the difference is clear.
I never call VHP Hinduistic Terrorist (I’m sorry, I had to coin a new word!
). But I do not have any objection them being called ‘Hindu Terrorists’ just as I have no objection to ‘Muslim Terrorists’.
abhilash
The same problem again. It is Muslim nationalism. Not ‘Islamic Nationalism’. Just like there can not be any scientific sorcery.
vichara
The Governments want the scarecrow of terrorism to be around. The government is more than happy to keep their population in fear. So terrorism or no terrorism, the government will find some scarecrow to make the population behave the way they want.
Before terrorism we had communism. So you see.
[quote comment="21625"]vichara
The Governments want the scarecrow of terrorism to be around. The government is more than happy to keep their population in fear. So terrorism or no terrorism, the government will find some scarecrow to make the population behave the way they want.
Before terrorism we had communism. So you see.[/quote]
And they were right. Communism was and is an evil. They fought it and own.
It is not “peace making”, multicultural, pseudo-secular liberals who won over communism, tore down the wall in Berlin. It is hard nosed liberal world that defected communism.
Communism was not a scarecrow. It was a real and imminent danger and its latest victim is India.
And you know whom the communists are accommodating now. Communists now just become a double danger.
Mirza Faisal:
Thanks for the link and the article. I haven’t had a chance, but I will read it and respond.
I agree that work needs to be done on both sides. But, here’s what I see: in the US/West, not just civilians (like me), but authors, scholars, policy makers are critical of Iraq war and Bush policies, and if you don’t know already, please look up Ralph Nader and Noam Chomsky. The US Senate is about to propose a bill (second time, first time it didn’t pass) that will force Bush to move out of Iraq soon. So, there is debate in the media on these issues, and people are certainly taking steps to change things. I can easily find books (written by Americans) criticizing US government’s foreign policies and dependence on oil.
You agree that you are against all the jihadis and Muslims who give Islam a bad name. I don’t know what your profession is, but I’ll assume that you are a civilian like me and don’t hold any position of power. But, can you point me to similar voices (scholars, prominent leaders etc.) in Muslim/Islamic community, or in your country (sorry, I don’t know where you live) who openly criticize jihadis for giving Islam a bad name (that are in Hindi or English – I understand a bit of Urdu, but can’t read it)? I remember reading about someone passing a fatwa against OBL a while ago. I’ll admit that I haven’t looked hard, so if you know of any books or journals or articles, please let me know as I’d like to read them. The only book I’ve read so far is “The Shia Revival” and I’ll be reading “No God But God” soon.
Living in the US, my powers are limited to expressing my opinion and supporting people who I think will change US policies (domestic and foreign) that will lead us away from dependence on foreign oil and supporting dictators. I cannot really do much when it comes to changing anything in, for example, Pakistani or Saudi Arabian countries/societies. That has to come from the people living there.
Amit,
let me answer for Faisal. You really need not look too hard to look at the dissent among Muslim Imams caused by terrorism. Even here at Indian Muslims we have quoted anti-terror fatwas.
Of books, I should suggest Karen Armstrong. She should suit your taste.
You can easily find her books on Amazon. Large bookstores in India keep them too.
I would also suggest Lost history.
I have not read it yet, but have seen the author talk in a program. He makes sense.
Manas, you missed my point somewhat. I had already read the post you mention, and also the one about Mufti and Mahant. Positive signs definitely. But I was talking about more prominent leaders, scholars etc. in the Muslim world. Anyway, this is a start. As more people question and raise their voice, maybe in another 50-100 years, there will be peace.
Sure, I’ll read Karen Armstrong if you read Aditi Bannerjee.
Amit,
There are actually scores of Fatwas against this kind of terrorism by leading Islamic scholars throughout the world. To elaborate I will try to put a blog when I get sufficient time.
It is a myth that has been propagated that ‘why not these scholars issue fatwa against terrorism’. I will Inshaallah write and show in my blog that in the past five years the opposite of that has happenned which has either been ignored by the media or not given sufficient footage.
Faisal
What exactly are you looking for?
Maybe you should contact the Dar-ul-ulum Deoband. I have heard them criticizing terrorism. (Newspaper did not publish that, of course!)
Mirza Faisal:
Thanks! My reason for asking you is two-fold. First, I mostly get my news from BBC, Boston Globe and Google News online, so I don’t get to see too many such instances (though BBC does carry a lot of news articles that to me, seem fair) and you would probably know of more sources that I’m missing (or are not carried by major media).
The second reason is that when I know of such instances, I can use it when I talk to friends and people that yes, there are attempts being made at the other end, or use it to write letters. Though I have to say that Boston is mostly liberal and sympathetic, and I don’t really move in conservative circles.
And, yes, I will keep checking IM blog and also add your blog to my bookmarks.
Have any of you seen a documentary called “Control Room”? It’s an excellent documentary on Al-Jazeera and US presence in Iraq. Maybe if you get to see it, you can write about it.
Amit,
I agree that BBC is pretty fair in its coverage. If you want to read meaningful Muslim thought in general I would recommend two sites.
http://www.altmuslim.com
http://www.islamicamagazine.com
Manas,
I believe ‘Islamist Terror’ is a better word as I agree that ‘Islamic Terrorism’ sounds to be an oxymoron.
Again clubbing everything as ‘Islamist Terror’ is again a mistake. Hezbollah or Hamas cant be clubbed under ‘Islamist Terror’ but Al Qaeda definitely.
Manas,
You wrote in the earlier post:
While the Indian police was quick to hold the entire Muslim community responsible, the indiscriminate arrest of Muslim youth after the train blasts proves this, the Australian police seems to have handled the situation better.
I hope you do realise that Australia and India are very very very different countries. Twenty million odd Australians, a majority of them White and Christian…it’s not difficult to track down an Indian there. Or all Indians there. And how many Indians are there anyway?
Your praise for Australian policing methods may change if you knew how they handled the case of rioting ethnic Lebanese youth in Sydney several months ago.
There were no mass arrests of people. People who were arrested were given proper treatment and released immediately if no evidence was found against them. But then its the Indian police so I am not complaining.
But you are complaining. And don’t you think it’s rather ironic that a person who is accusing someone of generalising against an entire community is himself generalising against an entire institution?
While criticising them, it is important to remember they are asked to perform the same job as their Western counterparts with much lower pay, without state-of-the-art technology and in a country where establishing a persons identity is much more complex.
That was me and not Manas, Nitin. So you support the view that every Muslim should have been arrested so as to decide later whom to detain later?
Dear Nitin, its all the mentality that matters. Indian police did what it does best, generalize everyone and arrest indiscriminately. Not just with Muslims but with poor in general. Police in Australia cannot afford this gross generalization because people there cannot be mislead (due to education and being economically well-off).
Regarding the Indian police not being paid well, I agree and why just the police but the Indian government employees as a whole. But that’s not the point here, it has to do with handling of the situation and not the efficiency.
Dear Mirza,
When you bring out the problems of Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere, first of all thier sufferings cannot be used as a pretext to promote terrorism. Hindus have been wiped off in miilions out of Bangladesh, the case of kashmiri pandits is almost forgotten, the jews have been close to being exterminated, 1 million vietnames have been killed by Americans, but none of these have taken up to terrorism…Then why just the Muslims? Is there something in the Quran that they interpret? Or Worldwide Islam the agenda of the extremists? We will need to look at and answer these questions.
Further the situation is IRAQ, AFGHANISTA, PAKISTAN and almost all over the muslim world…I am refering to the people that are dying out of bombs being exploded…who do you think is doing that? Is in not the work of the extremists? So can muslims blame anybody else but themselves for most of the situations they find themselves in.
Look at the recent Lal Masjid…The cleric and his militant aides used girls and other students as there shields…His brother was shown escaping in a burqa….Even then Condemnation of such an incident is only by few moderates and intellectuals…Who do you thing the majority favors? Obviously the EXTREMISTS….
So how do we belive that its just the handful muslims that are misguided?
Dear Salman,
Why are we suddenly doubting the expertise of the Indian police. It is the same police which brought the 1992 blast accused to justice and we recently had a verdict against them…So what do you think has suddenly changed? I think it is more of a political conspiracy than anything else…Congress has always been known to follow appeasement policy instead of having stern anti -terrorism measures.
Achal,
I would suggest you read my posts completely and you will understand pretty well that I am in no way supporting or rationalizing any terror. In fact on IM you will hardly find anything like that. We have always condemned and will condemn the taking away of any innocent life. And we take it as a principle…at least me. And I apply that universally.
That makes me to condemn all terror in which innocent lives are taken whether it is by Al Qaeda or whether it is by the US forces.
The problem with your thought process (as it is of many many others) is that you just look at one side of the picture and never care to look at the other side. It is no different from the extremists who look at their side only. It takes us nowhere. Unless you can look at the things holistically and stand by a principle and stick to it irrespective of anyone there will be no sanity in the argument.
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