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	<title>Comments on: Dara Shikoh&#8217;s &#8216;Two Oceans&#8217;: Book Review</title>
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	<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/</link>
	<description>A Window Into The Indian Muslim Life</description>
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		<title>By: Dr.Abdelfattah Badawi</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-30268</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr.Abdelfattah Badawi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 12:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-30268</guid>
		<description>I am asking from the comparative religion (or mystic)point of view about Shirdi Sai Baba and Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.Have they met or did anyone of them talked about the other one?
What the difference between the 2 entities ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am asking from the comparative religion (or mystic)point of view about Shirdi Sai Baba and Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.Have they met or did anyone of them talked about the other one?<br />
What the difference between the 2 entities ?</p>
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		<title>By: Mirza Faisal</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29566</link>
		<dc:creator>Mirza Faisal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29566</guid>
		<description>1. Who is Agha Khan ? How are the agha khanis different from other Muslims?

Dont know much but this that he is the head of one of the branches of the Ismaili Shias. He runs a lot of philanthropic organizations and has helped a lot in reviving a number of monuments. The most famous one for us is the Humayun&#039;s Tomb in Delhi which as got a facelift with his contributions. Maybe Mr. Google can help :) 

2. How did the mosques derive their architecture from? I have been to many countries and somehow all the mosques I find have the same architecture? 

The architecture of mosques I believe originated in the Middle East and Persia. It just got as a tradition and nothing else. But even there are differences for the discerning eye. Like I can anytime see a mosque of the Mughal Period or even in wider India and say it is at least in South Asia. There were some elements that were borrowed from local styles. 

But if you go back centuries it is not all same. Just see some old Chinese Mosques (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mosques) you cannot make a difference from Buddhist Pagoda or see the famous African Mud Mosque in this superb BBC Channel 4 film Paradise Found 
(http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8018912082115778034&amp;q=paradise+found&amp;total=586&amp;start=0&amp;num=10&amp;so=0&amp;type=search&amp;plindex=0) 

Similarly the old mosques in Kerala (where Islam first came to India through the Arab traders) the mosques had a striking resemblance to the temples.

3. Who are the qadianis? 

There was a person Mirza Ghulam Ahmad during the later part of nineteenth century and was an Islamic scholar. He later claimed that he was a Prophet and was also perhaps the second coming of Christ and the Kalki Avtaar of Hindus. Some of his other followers (most notably Muhammad Ali (an Indian Islamic scholar) ) said that he never claimed so. But anyway those followers who take him as a prophet are the Qadianis or Ahmadiyas. He claimed that there will be no new divine book or divine law but there will be prophets. I believe you can find more material over the net on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Who is Agha Khan ? How are the agha khanis different from other Muslims?</p>
<p>Dont know much but this that he is the head of one of the branches of the Ismaili Shias. He runs a lot of philanthropic organizations and has helped a lot in reviving a number of monuments. The most famous one for us is the Humayun&#8217;s Tomb in Delhi which as got a facelift with his contributions. Maybe Mr. Google can help <img src='http://indianmuslims.in/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>2. How did the mosques derive their architecture from? I have been to many countries and somehow all the mosques I find have the same architecture? </p>
<p>The architecture of mosques I believe originated in the Middle East and Persia. It just got as a tradition and nothing else. But even there are differences for the discerning eye. Like I can anytime see a mosque of the Mughal Period or even in wider India and say it is at least in South Asia. There were some elements that were borrowed from local styles. </p>
<p>But if you go back centuries it is not all same. Just see some old Chinese Mosques (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mosques" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mosques</a>) you cannot make a difference from Buddhist Pagoda or see the famous African Mud Mosque in this superb BBC Channel 4 film Paradise Found<br />
(<a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8018912082115778034&amp;q=paradise+found&amp;total=586&amp;start=0&amp;num=10&amp;so=0&amp;type=search&amp;plindex=0" rel="nofollow">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8018912082115778034&amp;q=paradise+found&amp;total=586&amp;start=0&amp;num=10&amp;so=0&amp;type=search&amp;plindex=0</a>) </p>
<p>Similarly the old mosques in Kerala (where Islam first came to India through the Arab traders) the mosques had a striking resemblance to the temples.</p>
<p>3. Who are the qadianis? </p>
<p>There was a person Mirza Ghulam Ahmad during the later part of nineteenth century and was an Islamic scholar. He later claimed that he was a Prophet and was also perhaps the second coming of Christ and the Kalki Avtaar of Hindus. Some of his other followers (most notably Muhammad Ali (an Indian Islamic scholar) ) said that he never claimed so. But anyway those followers who take him as a prophet are the Qadianis or Ahmadiyas. He claimed that there will be no new divine book or divine law but there will be prophets. I believe you can find more material over the net on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Mirza Faisal</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29564</link>
		<dc:creator>Mirza Faisal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29564</guid>
		<description>Manoj,

Among Sufis there is a whole spectrum particularly in India. I said major sufis with huge followings followed the fiqh in their personal lives just to make the point that the two are not completely detached or opposite :) There are definitely many sufis who have a vareity of stories. 

Even for Guru Nanak it is said that his story had a strong sufi leaning and had some sufi teachers. Sikhism as we know today crystallized more during other Gurus when Guru Granth sahib was compiled (which contains lot of sufi songs) and other codes were later established. 

Similar is the story of Sai baba of Shirdi where Yoginder Sikand in his book &#039;Sacred Spaces&#039; has argued that he was a sufi in his lifetime where he did not follow orthodox Islam and later many started to worship him and his grave has been turned into a temple and has become a major pilgrimage place in the south.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manoj,</p>
<p>Among Sufis there is a whole spectrum particularly in India. I said major sufis with huge followings followed the fiqh in their personal lives just to make the point that the two are not completely detached or opposite <img src='http://indianmuslims.in/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  There are definitely many sufis who have a vareity of stories. </p>
<p>Even for Guru Nanak it is said that his story had a strong sufi leaning and had some sufi teachers. Sikhism as we know today crystallized more during other Gurus when Guru Granth sahib was compiled (which contains lot of sufi songs) and other codes were later established. </p>
<p>Similar is the story of Sai baba of Shirdi where Yoginder Sikand in his book &#8216;Sacred Spaces&#8217; has argued that he was a sufi in his lifetime where he did not follow orthodox Islam and later many started to worship him and his grave has been turned into a temple and has become a major pilgrimage place in the south.</p>
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		<title>By: history_lover</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29532</link>
		<dc:creator>history_lover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:38:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29532</guid>
		<description>Imam Ghazali&#039;s books (many of them available in translation )  are good reads for anyone interested in Sufism within an orthodox Islamic perspective.
Fonsvitae has a good a collection of them .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Imam Ghazali&#8217;s books (many of them available in translation )  are good reads for anyone interested in Sufism within an orthodox Islamic perspective.<br />
Fonsvitae has a good a collection of them .</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: kafir #01</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29458</link>
		<dc:creator>kafir #01</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29458</guid>
		<description>Nice article. I love mystics, perhaps the only people who are &quot;religious&quot; in the true sense of the word. It&#039;s a long list of gems such as Buddha, Socrates, Rumi, Kabir, Ramkrishna Paramhansa, J Krisnamurti, Osho, Ramanna Maharishi to name a few. 

An excerpt from J Krishnamurti:

&quot;There is no path to truth, it must come to you. Truth can come to you only when your mind and heart are simple, clear, and there is love in your heart; not if your heart is filled with the things of the mind. When there is love in your heart, you do not talk about organizing for brotherhood; you do not talk about belief, you do not talk about division or the powers that create division, you need not seek reconciliation. Then you are a simply a human being without a label, without a country. This means that you must strip yourself of all those things and allow truth to come into being; and it can come only when the mind is empty, when the mind ceases to create. Then it will come without your invitation. Then it will come as swiftly as the wind and unbeknown. It comes obscurely, not when you are watching, wanting. It is there as sudden as sunlight, as pure as the night; but to receive it, the heart must be full and the mind empty. Now you have the mind full and your heart empty.&quot;

Ciao!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article. I love mystics, perhaps the only people who are &#8220;religious&#8221; in the true sense of the word. It&#8217;s a long list of gems such as Buddha, Socrates, Rumi, Kabir, Ramkrishna Paramhansa, J Krisnamurti, Osho, Ramanna Maharishi to name a few. </p>
<p>An excerpt from J Krishnamurti:</p>
<p>&#8220;There is no path to truth, it must come to you. Truth can come to you only when your mind and heart are simple, clear, and there is love in your heart; not if your heart is filled with the things of the mind. When there is love in your heart, you do not talk about organizing for brotherhood; you do not talk about belief, you do not talk about division or the powers that create division, you need not seek reconciliation. Then you are a simply a human being without a label, without a country. This means that you must strip yourself of all those things and allow truth to come into being; and it can come only when the mind is empty, when the mind ceases to create. Then it will come without your invitation. Then it will come as swiftly as the wind and unbeknown. It comes obscurely, not when you are watching, wanting. It is there as sudden as sunlight, as pure as the night; but to receive it, the heart must be full and the mind empty. Now you have the mind full and your heart empty.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ciao!</p>
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		<title>By: Manoj George</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29360</link>
		<dc:creator>Manoj George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29360</guid>
		<description>Thanks Faisal! I have added the book in my readings.

Yes, I also did not mean questioning the Quran.:-) I meant questioning the verses to find the hidden meaning.

However I did read somewhere that a sufi Al-&#039;Hallaj&#039;s beliefs and ideas were considered as clear Kufr. Consequently, he was executed in 309 , and was&#039; crucified on Baghdad&#039;s bridge.

There was one other Sufi who used to read the first verse of the Kalma which believed in the Unity of God but did not read the last verse. Consequently he was also exceuted. I will find the exact resource on this.

Okie some more questions:-

1. Who is Agha Khan ? How are the agha khanis different from other Muslims?

2. How did the mosques derive their architecture from? I have been to many countries and somehow all the mosques I find have the same architecture? 

3. Who are the qadianis? 

Regards,
Manoj George</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Faisal! I have added the book in my readings.</p>
<p>Yes, I also did not mean questioning the Quran.:-) I meant questioning the verses to find the hidden meaning.</p>
<p>However I did read somewhere that a sufi Al-&#8217;Hallaj&#8217;s beliefs and ideas were considered as clear Kufr. Consequently, he was executed in 309 , and was&#8217; crucified on Baghdad&#8217;s bridge.</p>
<p>There was one other Sufi who used to read the first verse of the Kalma which believed in the Unity of God but did not read the last verse. Consequently he was also exceuted. I will find the exact resource on this.</p>
<p>Okie some more questions:-</p>
<p>1. Who is Agha Khan ? How are the agha khanis different from other Muslims?</p>
<p>2. How did the mosques derive their architecture from? I have been to many countries and somehow all the mosques I find have the same architecture? </p>
<p>3. Who are the qadianis? </p>
<p>Regards,<br />
Manoj George</p>
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		<title>By: Mohib</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29314</link>
		<dc:creator>Mohib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29314</guid>
		<description>Sufi saints in India are the only people whose appeal not only permeates religions, but more importantly, across various sects of Indian Muslims. Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti is revered not only by Sunnis but by Shia as well. It is difficult to find such examples in later Islamic history.

Faisal:

Thanks for the book recommendation, I have added it to my list. Seyyed Hossein Nasr, an Iranian Professor at George Washington University, is another prominent voice of perennialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sufi saints in India are the only people whose appeal not only permeates religions, but more importantly, across various sects of Indian Muslims. Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti is revered not only by Sunnis but by Shia as well. It is difficult to find such examples in later Islamic history.</p>
<p>Faisal:</p>
<p>Thanks for the book recommendation, I have added it to my list. Seyyed Hossein Nasr, an Iranian Professor at George Washington University, is another prominent voice of perennialism.</p>
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		<title>By: Mirza Faisal</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29279</link>
		<dc:creator>Mirza Faisal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29279</guid>
		<description>Manoj,

It is a misunderstanding that traditionally Sufis have been considered deviant and as history_lover pointed out neither were they against the basic fundamentals of the religion. The major sufis who are well known followed one of the Sunni or Shia schools in their personal life. They prayed five times, fasted, believed in the finality of the Prophet, etc. 

They never questioned the Quran instead they said that the Quranic verses have two level of meanings. One is evident and the other is hidden. Many of them relied on their interpretation of the hidden meanings.

Even in today&#039;s world their was a sufi Martin Lings who recently died. He was an Englishman but very well known particularly for his biography of the Prophet. He followed a concept known as Perennialism which believed that all the major religions are valid. But yet he lived strictly as per the Islamic code following all the aspects of the Islamic faith and believed in the finality of the Prophet. He wrote a book &#039;What is Sufism&#039; which is considered an excellent work on Sufism in which he quite well has shown the confluence of sufi thought and the basic principles of Islam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manoj,</p>
<p>It is a misunderstanding that traditionally Sufis have been considered deviant and as history_lover pointed out neither were they against the basic fundamentals of the religion. The major sufis who are well known followed one of the Sunni or Shia schools in their personal life. They prayed five times, fasted, believed in the finality of the Prophet, etc. </p>
<p>They never questioned the Quran instead they said that the Quranic verses have two level of meanings. One is evident and the other is hidden. Many of them relied on their interpretation of the hidden meanings.</p>
<p>Even in today&#8217;s world their was a sufi Martin Lings who recently died. He was an Englishman but very well known particularly for his biography of the Prophet. He followed a concept known as Perennialism which believed that all the major religions are valid. But yet he lived strictly as per the Islamic code following all the aspects of the Islamic faith and believed in the finality of the Prophet. He wrote a book &#8216;What is Sufism&#8217; which is considered an excellent work on Sufism in which he quite well has shown the confluence of sufi thought and the basic principles of Islam.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: history_lover</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29250</link>
		<dc:creator>history_lover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29250</guid>
		<description>Manoj 
I don&#039;t think most muslims on the Sufi path would consider themselves different from sunni or shia and not consider the Prophet (SAW) the last Prophet.
Most prominent Sufis like Nizamuddin Alia or Abdal Qadir Jilani were educated in orthodox islamic texts .
Even the &#039;Deobandis&#039; like Ashraf Ali Thanvi and others are travellers on the Sufi path.
Altough this may surprise some, the prominent Qadiri Sufi saint Sultan Bahu&#039;s writings show support for Aurangzeb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manoj<br />
I don&#8217;t think most muslims on the Sufi path would consider themselves different from sunni or shia and not consider the Prophet (SAW) the last Prophet.<br />
Most prominent Sufis like Nizamuddin Alia or Abdal Qadir Jilani were educated in orthodox islamic texts .<br />
Even the &#8216;Deobandis&#8217; like Ashraf Ali Thanvi and others are travellers on the Sufi path.<br />
Altough this may surprise some, the prominent Qadiri Sufi saint Sultan Bahu&#8217;s writings show support for Aurangzeb.</p>
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		<title>By: Manoj George</title>
		<link>http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/comment-page-1/#comment-29190</link>
		<dc:creator>Manoj George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://indianmuslims.in/dara-shikohs-two-oceans-book-review/#comment-29190</guid>
		<description>Indeed a good article. I have been trying to study Islam and why people have all these wrong notions about a religion followed by so many people.  I was impressed by the writings of the sufi saints. 

I like them because they just did not believe in mugging up Quran but actually questioning its verses. Also, they were influenced by other religions and their writings not from a perspective of fault finding but to actually find the truth.

I am always surprised to find that sufism is considered a shirk in Islam. Going to majars is definitely a shirk in Islam but strangely most Muslims only consider this part of sufism.

I think sufism is the protestant part of Islam. While Shias and sunnis only take prophet Mohammed as the last prophet sufis consider that this is an ongoing exercise and that there is always possibility of more prophets.

I certainly feel that every one has to find his own truth. Otherwise the scriptures are just books or  guidelines to start a journey. They are not an end in themselves.

At the start of each Exam we are given certain guidelines. But we don&#039;t just mug them up and sit down hoping that we have now become the toppers. We actually go ahead and give the exam. Similarly the religious books are mere indicators. We need to go ahead
and start our journey in search of truth.

The only sad part is that every society in every time has been dogmatic about past learnings. The murder of Daroh Shikoh, Sarmad and others was clearly sad. 

I have found the Bhagwad Gita a really fascinating scripture and definitely sufism real attractive. Hope i realise the truth some day. The truth which is not a name, custom or belief neither the knowledge gained by learning the scriptures but the truth which is God.

Regards,
Manoj George</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed a good article. I have been trying to study Islam and why people have all these wrong notions about a religion followed by so many people.  I was impressed by the writings of the sufi saints. </p>
<p>I like them because they just did not believe in mugging up Quran but actually questioning its verses. Also, they were influenced by other religions and their writings not from a perspective of fault finding but to actually find the truth.</p>
<p>I am always surprised to find that sufism is considered a shirk in Islam. Going to majars is definitely a shirk in Islam but strangely most Muslims only consider this part of sufism.</p>
<p>I think sufism is the protestant part of Islam. While Shias and sunnis only take prophet Mohammed as the last prophet sufis consider that this is an ongoing exercise and that there is always possibility of more prophets.</p>
<p>I certainly feel that every one has to find his own truth. Otherwise the scriptures are just books or  guidelines to start a journey. They are not an end in themselves.</p>
<p>At the start of each Exam we are given certain guidelines. But we don&#8217;t just mug them up and sit down hoping that we have now become the toppers. We actually go ahead and give the exam. Similarly the religious books are mere indicators. We need to go ahead<br />
and start our journey in search of truth.</p>
<p>The only sad part is that every society in every time has been dogmatic about past learnings. The murder of Daroh Shikoh, Sarmad and others was clearly sad. </p>
<p>I have found the Bhagwad Gita a really fascinating scripture and definitely sufism real attractive. Hope i realise the truth some day. The truth which is not a name, custom or belief neither the knowledge gained by learning the scriptures but the truth which is God.</p>
<p>Regards,<br />
Manoj George</p>
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