yes this sounds reasonable no doubt. but mr adnan what about the kashmiri pandits who in their hundreds of thousands were pushed out of their native lands? they were the original inhabitants of the valley – much before you and your forefathers. when you have forcibly pushed them out, what right do you have to talk about justice and fairplay?

a lot of lives have been lost in kashmir?

yes. for that to end put down the guns. when you try to kill civilians and army men, do you expect them to keep quiet?

and kashmir is also made up of hindus and buddhists who have no trust in either pakistan or your “aazaadi” state – given the way minorities have been treated in pakistan and bangladesh and the way kashmiri pandits were forcibly pushed out of the valley.

so if you want your independent kashmir best go settle down in pok (which itself is a major concession india has made to pakistan and aazaadi kashmiris).

if you want to live in indian kashmir all you have to do is live by the democratic constitution – which a billion hindus and muslims live and prosper by. that is the only demand that the indian state makes of you.

That’s a flimsy argument that could go either way. One could just as easily argue that the attackers were Indian and attempting to mask their speech by throwing in random Urdu words…which they were unable to pronounce correctly.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/04mumterror-lies-of-the-lashkar.htm

Not possessing a television set myself, it was only just now that was I able to listen to the recording, hosted on the Internet, of a conversation which took place some days ago between a terrorist holed up at Nariman House in Mumbai and calling himself ‘Imran Babar’ and reporters of the India TV channel.

It is plainly evident from the conversation that the terrorist was a Pakistani, most likely a Punjabi. This is obvious from his accent and the sort of Urdu he speaks. One can easily make out that he had been carefully tutored by his mentors who masterminded the deadly terror assault on Mumbai to intersperse his hate-driven harangue with some Hindi words (shanti, parivar etc) and to use Urdu words in the typical Hindi way (jabardasti instead of zabardasti etc.) so as to give the misleading impression that he and the other terrorists with him were Indian Muslims, not Pakistanis. The terrorists claimed to belong to the ‘Deccan’ in India, but it is obvious that this was not at all the case. There can be no doubt that these Pakistani terrorists were trained to lie that they were Indian Muslims who were allegedly resorting to terror in revenge for the atrocities committed on Muslims in India.

> Keep spewing that hate-filled bile.

If you insist.. but, where is the hate, brother? There’s ridicule, but hate? C’mon!

I was just pointing out the irrefutable facts that:

1. India is bound by its constitution to defend against secession of its territories. The right to secede is simply not a right in India.

2. Kashmiri freedom strugglers are mostly jehadi forces funded by Pakistan. External parties encouraging secession is nothing new – India did it successfully in Bangladesh, and Pakistan tried to in Punjab and Kashmir. The jehadi aspect was finessed by Pak for the Afghan struggle and is even as we speak coming back to bite them.

3. The noble Kashmiri freedom strugglers drove out hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley. Is there even a single one left there?

Keep spewing that hate-filled bile. It only further demonstrates why the Kashmiri people have never been able to reconcile themselves with Indian occupation.

Despite your protestations, there is no such movement in Kashmir. There’s just an Islamist insurgency funded by Pakistani state to further its national interests, and some vocal local groups who’re more than happy to play along. It’s no coincidence that the Kashmiri movement took off precisely when Afghan war ended and the Mujahideen resources employed there became free.

You may want to read up on the Indian freedom struggle to see what the movement of a genuinely disenfranchised people would look like. Where are Kashmiri leaders of the stature of a Gandhi, Azad, Nehru or a Mandela? Where is a Kashmiri Dalai Lama who commands respect internationally through his principled leadership of a brutally oppressed people? All I can see are gun trotting, freedom struggling, quite possibly hashish-snuffing Islamists who had no qualms about driving out Kashmiri Pandits from their homeland. Some freedom struggle!

> that empty doccument

Of course, it’s no surprise that as a Pakistani sponsored freedom struggler, a nation’s constitution should be an empty document to you!

> All your jingoistic whining doesn’t change the illegitimacy of Indian occuption according to international law, and in the eyes of the overwheliming majority of the Kashmiri people.

Like I said, Kashmiri people may have serious complaints, but they’re hardly secessionist in nature. India couldn’t hold onto Kashmir otherwise, no matter how much force is used.

Also, you’re hardly a Kashmiri representative – there are democratically elected leaders from that state who have a greater claim to that title. You really don’t have a right to speak on behalf of “overwhelming majority” of Kashmiris.

LOL, you most definitely are a freedom struggler though – I’ll grant you that.

1. The terrorists also claimed to be speaking for the Gujarat riot victims, the Palestinians, and a number of other groups.. And yet, for some reason you seem to be reserving all your bile for the Kashmiris. Sounds like bigotry to me.

2. Reducing the Kashmiri independence movement to a couple of Pakistani groups left over from the Afghan wars just demonstrates your ignorance and/or state of denial. There is a liberal democratic indigenous Kashmiri movement at play here that bigoted imperialists like yourself gleefully ignore. As for the Indian constitution…considering the fact that the Indian govenment has spent the past 60 years trampling whatever rights the Kashmiri people were promised, it’s rather amusing to see anyone pretending that empty doccument is protecting us from anything. Your supreme court has already ruled that a kashmiri can be killed for any reason without so much as a shred of evidence…who needs such utterly worthless “protection.”

3. Frankly the Indian presence in Kashmir is nothing more than land grabbing by a greedy imperialist power with no interest in maintaining any sort of actual popular democracy in the region. The goverment has made absolutely no effort to even hide is efforts to suppress any expression of the popular will of the population. All your jingoistic whining doesn’t change the illegitimacy of Indian occuption according to international law, and in the eyes of the overwheliming majority of the Kashmiri people.

I agree with you completely. America draws its strength from the fact that it thinks as a NATION. If we can do that too, it will make us very much stronger. We have resources, we have people, we have intellect. With the right determination, we will be virtually unstoppable.

The response to the carnage in Mumbai in terms of how the average citizen has reacted is a very mature one. This points to a very hopeful future.

May not be completely off-topic after all, since the carnage in Mumbai was done in the name of the glorious Kashmiri freedom struggle, among other things.

> This is mostly just ignorant, bigoted hogwash that I’m not even going dignify with a response.

I think you already did by stating that there effectively *is* no response. LeT, Hizbul and Jaish as liberal democrats? Please. The only thing standing between terrorists and a complete talibanization of the Kashmir valley is the Indian constitution.

> No international body, and no nation other than India itself recognizes the Indian claim over Kashmir. All your tantrums aren’t going to change the fact that Kashmir, unlike any Indian state, is a disputed territory, and not a “integral part of India” trying to secede.

International bodies are irrelevant when it comes to how the Indian republic should be governed. The only authority here is the Indian constitution as far as India is concerned.

You’re reducing Indian presence in Kashmir as a mere land grabbing. If that were the case, Bhutan and Nepal would have been part of India a long time ago!

The problem here is that India just like any other constitutional republic is duty bound to stop secession of territories that its constitution recognizes as members of the Indian union.